I can appreciate that, but I teach my dogs that it means the same, perhaps that works best for me.

That's what I'm trying to figure out, HOW you teach them that it's the same As I say, even Shadow would leave food on the floor if told to before he picked it up but once it was in his mouth, no way was he letting go just because I said so and if I really wanted it then I'd have to fight him for it.

Dobermann, the choke them till they let go was done using a choke chain, pull it tight enough and the dog panics and ends up opening its mouth Not a method I used.

I don't ALWAYS reward Rupe with food. Sometimes he'll get food, sometimes a game, sometimes just a good boy.

Trouble, I had no problems with Shadow and give with any non food item. Any food item was high enough value for him to be aggressive over it though. Even if it was just an empty wrapper that smelled of food he'd fight you for it. He'd trade ANYTHING for a piece of cinnamon flavour breakfast cereal but you had to offer it to him before he'd let you have what he had. I may have got further with him but he was put to sleep a few months after I started working on it.

And if I did what you did with the pan poor Wolf wouldn't have dared to touch it while Shadow was in the room

Maybe it's time to brush up on his training a little and with Luke at work he didn't spend much time with him.

Sort of refresh his memory,but involve Luke again with feeding him, and his day to day care.

No, I wouldnt either.

Once a 'leave' is very solid and they are well conditioned to it etc, Iv noticed I can say leave (done it by mistake) and something will be dropped anyway.

I think that would be the best way and also to make sure your all 'singing from the same hymm sheet'

100% agree with this - he needs to learn that Luke has to be respected equally as much as the rest of his human pack.