I am with you on the neutering issue, but the point for working folk is that tail docking is a preventative for injury, not to do with a failure to train them not to injure themselves? They have their dogs out doing a job, a lot of people don't view it like that, more a hobby, but working folk see it as more of a vocation. A lot of them put many hours, time and money into their dogs, they wouldn't dock them if they didn't think it was necessary. Otherwise, surely, they'd dock their other breeds, if it was simply for fashion?

Not sure what you mean by the first bit, but if you look at older photos of working spaniels and HPR's, they are very similar to what we have in the working world today. For HPR's in particular, I think it's a great shame, as they are one of the few working breeds that are pretty much the same in the field and the ring, so the docking ban basically means the greatest achievers in the field, can't compete in the ring if they've been docked, where's the sense in that? In that instance, Crufts becomes what many have derided it for being for many years, a beauty pageant, without function of the dog at the fore front. I'd prefer to see it further the dogs that can and are worked at what they were bred to do.

Over time - we have bred (or are trying to breed) animals that are better suited for the purpose than the previous generation.....

People have not bothered with tails as they have been able to cut them off.....as ethics have moved on, people are now questioning whether it is right to chop bits off your dog to make it fit the purpose it has been used for......the Law agrees that this is more ethical for dogs in a working sense....the KC have decided that it is not for a showing sense....
and I agree that the best workers should be the ones who are shown.....

I prefer to see the dogs doing what they were bred to do - ...incidentally - I have met a fair few people who work springers with Tails.....they always complain about the ears!!

However - Personally - I do not like to see docked (or bobbed) dogs....maybe because (from a behavioral point of view) the tail is an important part of communication, or maybe because I do not like to see dogs altered in such a way....Thats just a personal thing

Can I please ask people to stick to the topic - this is not about docking alone, this is about legally docked dogs not beiong allowed to be shown at certain shows including Crufts. Please read the link in the OP!!!!
IF YOU WANT TO DISCUSS THE MORALS AND ETHICS OF DOCKING, PLEASE START A DIFFERENT THREAD AND LEAVE THIS ONE ALONE!

Thank you.

With tails in working dogs definitely yes, it was to prevent the dog from harming themselves and injuring themselves. It was of no consequence to the owner, just beneficial to the dog.

I dont doubt that some people didnt dock their dogs a long time ago, what Im saying is it was done for the right reasons. With some other breeds it was cosmetic, and I absolutely agree with it for these reasons too, I like the way it looks, but talking working dogs, certainly it was done for the dogs welfare.

Why has no one commented on my suggestion that they incorperate working tests in showing classes thereby solving the problem?

You can't really seperate the ethics from the showing---it is all linked and comes under the mutilation of animals in the DEFRA document. It is linked because if the docking wasn't done the dogs could be shown.

If the KC had any guts they'd say they couldn't be shown at ANY show ---that would solve the problem as well.

There you go two solutions in one post----which do you fancy?

rune

They could make the test very basic---chuck the dummy---make the dog wait then fetch it. Do a basic stay in any position while handler chucks dumnmy and then gets it.

They should be able to manage that then it would come under working ability and be OK at shows anywhere.

rune

since when did you become a moderator?

That wouldn't really show off the ability of a dog that's bred to flush game, although I think they already do incorporate a dummy retrieve with gundog breeds at Crufts?

I think the idea of breeding a shorter tail is really out of the question, we have enough people placing limits on gene pools with health test results, when they don't really need to, why do the same by only trying to use dogs with a naturally shorter tail, when a quick snip sorts it out for life? All so you can enter into a show where the dog is fit for purpose and proven to be so?? Not really an option I don't think.

If you're going to discuss entry of docked dogs into shows, I too think you have to at least touch on the ethics of it, as that's the very reason why they are unable to compete at an equal level as their undocked counterparts.

But only for working Gundogs that would be applicable, its ALL docked breeds that are suffering. What would we do for Terriers?

Same applies, its not only the working dogs is it? Dont forget, they have also commented on Bulldogs tails being wrong, and need correcting, yet they have never been docked!

No they wont say that though, because ethically and morally they would be wrong to stop a working dog competing at a KC show, therefore totally dismissing the "fit for function" aspect. You cant have it both ways.

I don't want it both ways---I wanted a total ban on docking.

You work and show your terriers with tails---whats the problem?

How many dogs (other than spaniels who are multi purpose) flush game and are docked? English pointers aren't docked so why are the German?

rune