OMG, I just loved that video!!! I think I might be caving in here............

Most of that video is just playing around though, doing a few, dare I say it, tricks that it has been taught, some agility, some obedience (the back etc.), but that's not the idea I have in my head with this "tricks" business. I like that, me and Zena would love all that what's going on in that video, but to just teach a dog A TRICK, be it whatever, then when somebody comes round, you can bore them to death by saying look what my dog does gives you a paw or similar. No, that video is totally, totally different than what I have in my head about teaching dogs "a trick". That video is all about interacting with your dogs and just having good old fun and that I DO like!

I'm a bit confused Helena, you say you don't believe in teaching this and that unless the intention is to take it further, yet you are training zena on agility. I totally understand it's for pure pleasure and that's great but it's a bit contradictory. Dogs were never intended to do agility and in my way of thinking the whole course is a collection of " tricks "

I think this is quite an interesting discussion, and I think maybe the crux of it comes down to the work trick, and its literal meaning,

For most people, I think the meaning is to perform a feat for amusement purposes, (i.e. an audience) as in magic or cards. No other purpose to it.

Teaching a dog a "trick", to me is not for amusement, as there is a purpose to what I am teaching. So maybe I should just use the word teach!!

Teaching a lion, say, to jump through a hoop for entertainment purposes is teaching a trick, although teaching the same lion to jump onto a platform and lean against the side of a cage to be examined or receive a vaccination etc, is training. Same methods are used to teach, but for very different purposes.

So perhaps, it depends on the purpose, and teaching something for no purpose other then amusement of others to me would be demeaning.

I will shut up now, in case I am boring everyone with my ramblings

My dogs are all demeaned then as they all do HTM, agility and obedience tricks for enterrtainment! Oh---as well as some nose work.

If you look at springers, collies and also staffies in rescue a lot of them have ben given up because they are one step ahead of their owners and they are bored rigid and find their own amusements.

I can't believe the amount of things that Etta has been able to learn, generalise and enjoy doing.

rune

It is lovely to watch a team enjoying themselves like that
Thats all I see trick training for - to be able to interact more and have fun with my dogs
People do ask to see their tricks - but thats not what its all about - most of the time we are just playing around in a field with noone else there
I dunno if I would ever go into a ring with HWTM - prob not cos I am a cowerd - but if I did it would just be the same as with agility - me and my dog having fun

Yes another good point - much of Mias 'trick training' has been just to teach her to be a polite dog - the more tricks she learns the more value she has in the behaviours like 'sitting still and calm while someone says hello to you' 'Walking slowly and nicely along the road instead of being a crazy pulling machine'
and trusting me and looking to me for guidance instead of running of and shouting at anything new

But the difference for me is the fact that Zena is so enjoying this agility, she's fun to watch, she does it for fun, just like some horses jump for fun. What I'm against is painstakingly "teaching" her something, something that I would never use out and about, something that is to me (and Dawn !) pointless, whereas this agility, I don't care if the whole course is a mire of tricks, it serves its purpose, it pleases Zena, it pleases ME to see her so pleased and it wears her brain out (a little bit!).

Well that's just about said it for me, that is EXACTLY what I'm on about, I must have had that circus imprint in my head, and to me, yes, it's making a fool out of a beautiful beast who should be roaming free in the bush, not be made to do stupid "tricks"!! Thanks Luchi, you've said exactly what's going on in my head here!

MY dogs, same as Dawn's are NOT bored rigid, they have a proper life here (be it a bit of a boring one for old Georgie, but he likes it) I have said before, they get my full attention most of each day, every day, it is always THEIR day, never mine, so unless I'm struck down by lightening my dogs would never go into rescue, and certainly not by being bored rigid. In fact, if they were bored rigid I would have problems, big problems with my particular breed and I would never want to see that happen to any dog, but stimulation is just what it says, stimulation, and if my offer to them is not acceptable in that vein, unless I start teaching them some tricks, then that's tough I'm afraid, we don't do tricks here (yet!!! )

The thing is BenMc, that woman has spent hours upon end doing her obedience work, her agility work and those other things , she's young, she probably competes at quite a high level, whereas do I wanna do that? Nah! I have far too much work to do, and a different life quite honestly. I spent too many years attending horse events every week-end, training my horse, schooling my horse, riding my horse every day of the week, and dogs for me are different I'm afraid, I just love them and hope I do the best that I can for them, but they're not getting the whole of me, I have a husband, a big house to clean and a business to run but all of those are way down the list from my two babies of that I can assure you!

No, I'm sorry, I'm not with you on that one, those are down to training, imo tricks are a totally different ball game. Every dog should have manners, respect and obedience, and that's why you train them, you NEED those qualities in a dog, but you never need tricks!

An instant down IS a trick!

Walking nicely is a trick, herding sheep is a trick----the instinct is there but the handler has to teach the dog how to do the trick properly.

I quite understand that you enjoy your dogs and I wasn't for ONE minute suggesting they were bored. I said that the dogs that were handed into rescue often were. There was NO reference to your dogs at all.

I don't understand why you are protesting so much when we've all said that we respect your decision not to train what you see as tricks.

rune

<<<,Well that's just about said it for me, that is EXACTLY what I'm on about, I must have had that circus imprint in my head, and to me, yes, it's making a fool out of a beautiful beast who should be roaming free in the bush, not be made to do stupid "tricks"!! Thanks Luchi, you've said exactly what's going on in my head here! >>>>

Well my beasts would rather be on the sofa than roaming the bush.

Funny----I respect your decision not to train what you consider to be tricks but you call the things I teach my dogs 'stupid'----unless they coincide with the things you train your dog---like agility----then it isn't stupid!

rune