I have only read the last page and seen this quote on John's post so apologies if it's been taken out of context. Don't you think that only show people are capable of breeding? How about people who work their dogs and want to continue a good working line? Why shouldn't they breed their dogs?

Helen

How would the owner of the bitch know whether or not your dog was of breed standard ??? As I said before, Champions do throw out not so good dogs sometimes, however, you are saying your dog has a pedigree to die for. What exactly do you mean by that ? Please elaborate ?

How do you know the Judge was not just being complementary. I'm sorry but you can have the best trained dog in the ring, if it isn't breed standard and another dog is, the well trained one will not win, just for being 'good'. Judging is about the dog closest to the breed standard, not it's behaviour. In my breed I am constantly up against a dog who is very badly behaved and very aggressive towards other dogs and often it's owner, however, the dog is closer to the standard than my dog, and therefore he gets placed over my dog. I've also recently seen a newcomer go to a Champ show as his first show, and didn't have a clue what to do, but his dog was placed 1st as it was the best standard. Training has very little to do with placings as I'm sure most exhibitors will agree with me. As you've only been to a couple of shows, I hardly think you are qualified enough to be the new expert on Judging !!!

So please answer my original question.........what do you call 'in' breeding ?

I never said anything about being above board. I said I had never heard of show kennels charging more than normal for a dog with great pedigrees etc.

This is a contradiction if ever I heard one........please explain. Either you DID pay more for the shows his parents won or you didn't !!!!

How do you know that if he hasnt been shown ??? The whole point of showing is to see whether or not the dog is anywhere near the breed standard. The fact that he's "good looking" is neither here nor there with regards to breed standards !!!

And your point is ???? Any dog, whether it has Champs in the pedigree or not, could potentially produce a good dog, breed standard wise. My point is, your "to die for" pedigree means diddly squat, unless the dog ACTUALLY has the desired points to back it up against other dogs of the CORRECT breed standard.

NO Judge would place other dogs over yours simply on the basis of 'you didn't know what you were doing'. He may have commented on him being good looking................I've seen hundreds of dogs that I think are handsome etc, but it doesnt mean they are anywhere near the breed standard. And as I said earlier, as youve only done a show or two, you are not really in a position to be a breed expert all of a sudden, that is a judges job !!

Actually that was My quote.

OK, lets look at it from that hypothetical perspective only. I have a very good Doberman, who happens to be very, very good at pulling a sledge, and is so fast at it, that it has won many races at rallies, and strangely won a Title doing it. It was then taken to Alaskan and tested and again won another title at it, trekking for miles and miles etc.

Do I NOW call my dog a Husky and register it as such ??????

NO. Because it's NOT a Husky.

Breed Standards exist so that people who want a specific looking dog can go and get the dog they like. If we breed from working dogs, that are no-where near the breed standard, what will the progeny look like ?? What will their progeny look like, and so on. Eventually you get a good working dog (maybe) that looks nothing like the breed it SHOULD BE. THEN WHAT ???

I Think Your All Mad Lollllllllllllll

Well where to start?

.
No guarantees, but you stand a far better chance of producing good animals if you use conformationally correct dogs in the first place. Or dogs are beautiful to us, an independant view is what is needed, hence the shows.


Rubbish! Two very successful Dobermann kennels plus more are in Scotland, and (as in your previous post) they can hardly be called "whippety" based on European lines, this just is not the case. You went to Bedford for your dog because you wanted to.

Again, you paid £800 because you wanted to, nobody was forcing you, its your choice.

Out of interest, what beeding are your Dobes?

My view isn't blinkered at all. I Show and WORK my dogs, as do the majority of show people in my breed. I also know of show people who have shown their dogs and done well, but the dog won't work for some reason, therefore they don't breed from it.

However, in all honesty how many dogs that were originally bred for a purpose actually need to do that job anymore ??? Do bedlingtons do their job anymore ?? I have no idea !!

If there is no need to work them anymore, how do we then assess whether or not to breed from them......................by making sure they are as close to the breed standard as possible, bearing in mind the original breed standards took into account that certain things had to 'be so' to make sure the dog 'Could' do the job in the first place.

Sorry, Will do

I think youve got it totally the wrong way round if it wasnt for working dogs you wouldnt have show dogs, its the show people that have bred some types that dont resemble the breed as they were first intended to look WHY have they done that, purely for selfish reasons. MY SHOW DOG IS BETTER THAN YOUR WORKING DOG, its longer, taller, darker, bigger, but frankly madam i dont give a dam

John the only people who change breeds are the KC. If people were to breed different types and then try to exhibit them and expect to get away with it, they would be wasting their time, as the Judges go by the breed standard and know their dog wasnt right. IF the standard has been changed, then it has been done by the KC.

I suggest if you have a problem with the way certain breeds have been changed contact the KC about it. It's not down to exhibitors, we just have to abide by what the KC, Judges and Breed standard says.

I don't think it is the KC's fault. Standards are very rarely altered, basically it is down to interpretation by breeders and judges. People place different emphasis on different desireable traits, those traits do well inthe ring and then become exaggerated leading to the breed being altered, the breed standard hasn't changed. What people should do is read the breed standard and stick to their own interpretation regardless not chopping and changing what happens in the ring, that may mean that your 'type' doesn't win but things always go round in circles so they will do again eventually!
Becky