Fighting

Well in the last few weeks my twos play fighting when on walks has been getting rougher and rougher and today.... their playing turned into a full blown fight- with blood and screams and me trying to seperate them whilst out walking on my own.
When I did manage to seperate them they didnt try and go back for more- they both walked happily on the lead on the way home.
I just hope it doesnt happen again- they were just playing then it suddenly turned nasty....any advice appreciated

Dont allow rough play

Its just like 2 kids.
If you let them player rougher and rougher, their adrenaline gets too high, they loose self control, its turns into a fight

Its an inevitable outcome really

Learn their signs, when you notice they are about 3 steps away from a barny, distract them from playing with some dog training instead, such as sits, downs, walking to heel.

this doesnt mean you are trying to dominate or punish them, it just means you are giving them something else to do and think about.

And it should be alternative activity which calms them down, not perpetuates their high arousal state. So i would avoid any ruuning about, chasing balls or jumping over logs type training activities.

These could be done when you dont detect over-arousal

Not sure if my advice is of any help. But when Skye and bruce ''play fight'' I let them but if it turns to rough play fighting, I just say ''enough'' and break it there and then.
Simply because in the past I have found rough play fighting can turn serious, they just forget it is rough and end up loosing thier ragg with one another.

well they have just had another fight...Just wandering about the house quietly-eyeballed each other then attacked- both giving as good as they got! :s

What gender and age are they? Are they neutered?
Do you know what sets it off?
I`d separate them for now.

Yes agree, do separate them for now because as the first fight was today, they'll be probably still full of adrenalin and stressy.

See how they are tomorrow maybe, but watch them and don't leave them alone together....

Agree with supervising play and interrupting, also ensure when they do play that both dogs are enjoying it and it's not one dog being more pushy than the other and wanting it more than the other.

One way you can tell is to see if they chase, and if they do if both dogs take turns in asking to be chased. If they do and continue to do it it's probably fairly well balanced

Wys
x

Both un neutered bitch is 2 1/2 and dog is 20 months.

Dont really know whats causing it...

sadie(bitch) is laways the one to 'play attack' yoda and then yoda is always the one to do the chasing

I thougt it was a bitch thing as well Daisy, especially as they are both young and same breed. But was mistaken, they are male and female (checked gsd website)

They probably havent cooled down from the earlier incident.
What you are seeing as 'walking happily on the way home,' probably wasnt.
I would surmise - but with the caveat i havent seen them - that this tension between them has been exhibiting and growing for a long period.
If that is so, i would also surmise that both your GSD's have a general high arousal level as a perpetual baseline, which isnt good.
(You also have to also consider that you own 2 examples of a reactive breed).
Meaning their hormones need to level out.
This condition could be related to too much rough play, and possibly lots of over-arousing activity, such as agility, and anything else in their daily routines that is exciting???
And that this lifestyle has existed for a while.
I would go back to basics and look at their whole lifestyle, routines, activities, interactions between each other and with the humans.
But to determine and measure all of this, i would definitely recommend a home visiting trainer with behaviour knowledge, which includes a good understanding of subtle non-verbal communication, including calming signals, or a behaviorist recommended thru your vet.
Your vet should rule out medical conditions anyway.
I would also recommend you research Turid Rugaas and Calming Signals.
This could involve lots of changes, probably focusing more on quieter calming 'mental' activities such as clicker, scentwork, etc.
You wouldn't necessarily have to rule out agility, but maybe have a break, or re-orient it.
For example, do both dogs spend a lot of time at high impact competitive events together, and with many other hyper dogs, such as Border Collies?
Do they also guard the property and back at anything that goes by?
That could also be another arousal trigger that needs addressing.
Changing the physical landscape of your house may also help?
Rearrange furniture, remove flashpoints.
For example, do you have tight spots where the dogs have to rub up against each other to move from a to b?
You need areas where they can deviate around each with plenty of space....areas that encourage opposite arching movements around each other are good (opposite arching is a calming signal and shouldn't be confused with circling each other, which is provocative).
Avoid doorway clashes, especially when getting ready to go out for walks or in the garden.
In fact, pre-walking rituals should be very very calm.
Get them into sits and waits at that point.
Avoid running up and down stairways, especially together.
Feed quite separately to each other, including so they cant see each other.
What do they eat? Is it rocket fuel, like Bakers?
Make sure their each have their own sanctuary in the home, from each other and people.
If you see eyeballing, distract them or step in between them - but make that very very subtle

Arousal can be accumulative. It takes 20 minutes for heart rate and hormones to calm down, unless something else arousing happens, which means you need a longer period of down time, and so and so forth, until you find yourself needing weeks or months to get back to normal.
This is as true for people as it is for dogs.
Kenneled dogs or imprisoned people can suffer this.

At least for the next couple of days, while you have time to reflect and consult a professional, keep them more separated, so they can cool down quite a bit, and dont do anything exciting with them at all.

Good luck

Thanks for the advice krusewalker..
The only real signs that have been evident are the fact my male is becomming more dominant as he hits maturity.
They are now happily asleep on top of each other now. There is nowhere in my house where they are forced to be next to each other or touch but they choose to be joined at the hip- they each chew an end of the same bone and really (at least from our point of view) seem to be best friends.
They do have a lot of exercise daily but not agility everyday.
Agility competitions is most weekends (including this weekend) but the only time that they are together there is in the car and only the bitch gets wound up by it(the dog is very chilled out and relaxed)
I train them both independantly most days.
They saw the vet last week and are both in fine form.

To be straight with you I doubt if they will ever live in Peace, bitches once they have had a scrap like that will continue to do so every time they make eye contact or something happens to set them off (like you speaking or grooming one of them).

If you are unable to separate them at least when you are not there you may need to re-home one of them, spaying may help but it could make things worse.

Are they the same age, I think you may have said I will go and look, if they are that is an additional problem as it is difficult to know which one to spay.