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Wysiwyg
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02-08-2010, 07:51 AM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Ponderosa are gundog trainers, I agree the term they used was stupid but the training doesn't refer to a dog running from, an e collar ect but describes training the dog not to bolt out of training/working when it feels like it. Its kinda a usa gundog term.

..
The term use by them itself was indeed stupid, we agree there

However, they did describe putting the dog on the line and even if it bolted (clearly due to fear - why else does a dog bolt away from the trainer/owner?) they were pulled out with estim/line and forced to cope with the stim.
That was my point - the fact that the dog bolted and was pulled out with no compassion.

This is yet another side of shock collars I totally detest and why they need to be banned - this cruelty does occur and people think nothing of it.



Wys
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rune
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02-08-2010, 07:52 AM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
I`m running out of room on my Ignore list ....
Oh don't ignore 'phoebe'

looks like 'she' could provide many hours of fun.

Nice to see you here (G)!

rune
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Jackie
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02-08-2010, 07:53 AM
Originally Posted by BamBam View Post
You're not looking hard enough are you dear.

And some people need to realise that ecollar training isnt all about high levels of stim. Just like withholding a treat or yanking on a halti.

You know, this is the first time we have had a troll on board that has actually turned out to be a good thing.


The pages and pages Adam has written here and else where along with the old garbage he and other supporters of the e.collar spout...BamBam has just summed up the real reason why they use the e.collar its the easiest method to use!!

I too use an collar, always have done. I have also trained by using various other methods but for me by far the e collar is the easiest
.

Says it all does it not.... a quick fix , by a lazy trainer!!!

Welcome to the forum, and thinks for the info it is very enlightening
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Wysiwyg
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02-08-2010, 07:53 AM
I was recently reading "Oh Behave!" by Donaldson.

In one chapter, she related how a dog "trainer" was taken to court for cruelty in dog training (the dog died, if I recall, due to the method) and an animal behaviourist was called to give evidence against the method. (Or to give their opinion). The "trainer" did not have any consequences, because it was deemed that the method they used was a dog training method, and the trainer could show that it was recommended as a method in dog training books.

The "method" was used as directed, not misused or done incorrectly.

How sad is this state of affairs. The method was not detailed, but I presume it was perhaps hanging the dog , as of course that could and has killed dogs.

I feel that often what is done to dogs in the name of training is sick, and we need to fight against cruelty in training, not just sit back and accept it. This is why, Adam, so many of us feel strongly - we do not want cruelty in the name of training.

Even supposing you and a few others *could* use shock collars without causing undue stress or any pain, there are thousands of dogs, if not more, suffering due to shock collars being allowed.

Dogs suffering range from the well known franchises where collars are used on higher levels, (SMS), gundogs, sports dogs, and others, to pet dogs whose owners know no better.

Sad how so often the dog suffers for human "pride" - gundog prizes, sports prizes, etc. Makes me flaming mad.

They have to, and will, be banned, however long it takes.

Wys
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Jackie
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02-08-2010, 07:55 AM
Originally Posted by rune View Post
Oh don't ignore 'phoebe'
looks like 'she' could provide many hours of fun.

Nice to see you here (G)!

rune
Do we have a he who is posing as a she

Either way he/she is not very bright, he/she has just undone in one little sentence , what Adam and his counterparts have been preaching fro yrs, about why they use the e.collar.

In her words , she has just confirmed what we all know..... ITS THE EASIEST WAY TO GET RESULTS!!!!!!!!!!!
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Wysiwyg
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02-08-2010, 07:59 AM
Just to add, there's a couple of excellent articles in Dogs Today this month.

One from Victoria Stilwell, detailing how she saved a dog's life, after the owner called her in desperation. A trained had taken a lot of money from the owner, and given her instruction on how to use a shock collar, and the dog (a Basset IIRC) was out of control and clearly stressed, with no relationship with the owner.

Take the shock collar away, and the dog's life was saved with the relationship being much happier and also it cost the owner less

Also an excellent article by David Appleby, who takes to task a few of the more throwaway comments by another contributor to the magazine, and also refers to sensible excellent advice for dog owners, rather than what is being taught in some quarters.

Well worth getting a copy

Wys
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wilbar
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02-08-2010, 08:08 AM
Originally Posted by BamBam View Post
You're not looking hard enough are you dear.

And some people need to realise that ecollar training isnt all about high levels of stim. Just like withholding a treat or yanking on a halti.

Stir up trouble? How? What have I said that has made you decide that? I merely pointed out that I use one and that others have been rude to the one poster with a differing view. But judging from this thread anyone with a different view to yours is fair game, you solely have proved that. Hey guys look an ECOLLAR user, lets get her

Maybe a shock would, just like a yank or treat would.
Oh here we go the old SHOCK oh I mean STIM lines. Nothing new this week? YAWN BOOOORING

They love it like a halti pulling on their neck, or a withheld treat, or a yank on the lead, or a rattle bottle or a ...and we go on.

21st Century LOL, CLICK
Whilst it's highly likely that you've only come on this forum to wind people up, on the very slight off chance that you're willing to consider the vast majority's view that ecollars are cruel, sadisitic & unnneccesary, I'll respond.

Firstly you clearly haven't read the whole of this thread, let alone given any thought to what's already been posted, otherwise you wouldn't be spouting such ill-thought out & uninformed views. Everything you've said has been said time & again by ecollar users/supporters & everytime its been countered by scientific & factual rebuttals. And no-one on this forum who has been critical of the use of ecollars has said that they use rattle bottles, yank on a lead etc. That's just the same old lame & pathetic excuse used to pretend that other people use punishment to train their dogs or to pretend that an electric shock is no worse than a tight lead.

And yet again ecollar users spout the same old rubbish about "withholding treats". It seems like this is the only argument they can make against pos reinforcement ~ and if this is the extent of their argument, then it just proves that their knowledge of learning theory, ethology & physiology in the world of dog behaviour is zilch.

It is disingenuous, misleading & downright daft to call electric shocks "stims". Why not at least be honest & tell clients that "I'm going to give your dog electrics shocks until it stops doing that naughty behaviour ~ it will terrify him & cause him a lot of pain, but he will stop chasing sheep/pulling on the lead/barking etc etc. He may stop doing lots of other behaviours, he may become totally shut down & scared of you, or he may associate you with the electric shock & attack you ~ but at least he won't pull on his lead"!!!!! If ecollar users could be that honest at least their clients would know the truth & could make an informed decision as to whether to use an ecollar. But to keep using such silly terms as "stim" or "vibration" or "mild sensation" just completely proves that ecollar users know nothing about the use of punishment or scientific learning theory.
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Wysiwyg
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02-08-2010, 08:09 AM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
I`m running out of room on my Ignore list ....
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Tassle
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02-08-2010, 08:14 AM
Originally Posted by BamBam View Post
Hi all

I am new here and reading this thread I thought I would give my views

I too use an ecollar, always have done. I have also trained by using various other methods but for me by far the ecollar is the easiest. And to the chap that said the dog runs for cover when the collar comes out far from it. How many ecollar trained dogs have you witnessed doing this, or was it just hot air? It is just the same as many dog owners when the lead comes out, he knows he is going out and is very happy.

Says it all really!

I have never ever needed to stim the dog on a high level, it is counter productive, and test the collar every day I use it on the level I use for the dog. I test to see it isnt malfunctioning. Puts a stop to the "try it on yourself" brigade.

Tried it on me....would never do that to my dog

What I normally find is those people who knock it have never tried it. You can abuse a dog with any lead or impliment and normally one doesnt go out of their way spending 300 to go and abuse a dog with such a tool. You will now say that us ecollar users all say the same thing, something that Adam on here was accused of, but in my experience the anti ecollar brigade normally come out with the same old arguments too. I dont see how an ecollar can be said to be more abusive than an halti rubbing the dogs head, or a slip chain or a dog choking at the end of a nylon lead, or withholding a treat.

You honestly feel that an electrical stimulation is the same as withholding a treat?

I have also used prong collars, as well as all other collars and harnesses and found them to be excellent too. They dont pull on them as they do on leather colars that hurt their throat.

Don;t think that really justify's and answer....other than - if a standard collar is hurting your dogs neck, maybe you should measure the dogs neck properly!

I have a very happy loving dog who loves going out with his collar on. Not appeasment, dogs don't do that. You really think that dogs premeditate moods? Do you really think they see the ecollar and think to themselves "got to look like I like this or else" Oh Please!. I would love to know how one poster thinks a dog fakes excitement and calmness? So when mine is excited when he goes out with his collar on what he really means is he is in avoidance and appeasment. Really. If you think that and you think a dog premeditates that perhaps you're not the best person to own a dog.

How on earth do you know......this is something I find continually baffling. NO one knows what a dog is thinking of feeling - we cannot ask them! What we can do is look at studies with regards to chemical levels within the dogs and the behaviour that follows and make educated guesses. Animals can 'shut down' in times of stress - this can easily be interpreted as being calm. Excitement can be a form of stress... my dog will often jump up and bark when she does not understand what I am asking her - IMO a form of stress - but she looks like she is having fun! As to dogs premeditating.....I would give my dog enough credit to understand that if something happens in a sequence of events enough times they will start understand what is coming.

And it is funny though that the ones against the ecollar are the only ones here being abusive to the ecollar user. This is quite normal though. Those whos arguments hold no water generally resort to insults etc. I see some posters on here from Dog Chat who have had their arguments and critisisms shattered by Lou Castle over there.

It is a pity ignorance isnt banned.

Phoebe
Oh yes - that is a huge pity.
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wilbar
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02-08-2010, 08:15 AM
Oops ~ seems I'm just catching up here after the weekend ~ another troll?! And yes Bambam has probably done a lot of harm to ecollar users by such silly remarks, showing them in their true colours. Sorry Adam, but your one & only supporter has done you a lot of damage!
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