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mishflynn
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30-07-2010, 08:49 AM
& what is DC? (i only know DC as a ob exercise)
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Krusewalker
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30-07-2010, 09:07 AM
that would be your perspective, yes....

.....but you statement would therefore imply that the e collar trainers on DC that i compared AP of being the complete opposite...ie, personal, etc, etc, etc....would be passionate about dogs and their welfare.

PM'd re other point.
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wilbar
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30-07-2010, 09:08 AM
Originally Posted by mishflynn View Post
thats because hes not passionate about dogs & their welfare.
Possibly, & I've got the impression AP is more concerned about impressing his clients with "instant" results than about the dog's welfare.

But for me the more frightening aspect is the complete inability to accept that causing pain/fright/surprise, whatever term is applied to electric shocks, is the way to teach a dog anything, let alone modify ingrained & innate behaviours. And then to dress up this cruelty in operant conditioning terms that somehow make it acceptable to give a dog an electric shock, is, at best blinkered & unthinking, & at worst, sadistic & cruel. To refer to causing pain/fear/shock/surprise as just a mild stim , is either incredibly naive & stupid, or calculatingly callous & malicious.

Either way it shows a complete lack of empathy for any dogs unlucky enough to come into contact with "trainers" that use ecollars.
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Adam P
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30-07-2010, 11:12 AM
JB
There are more forums than the ones you know me on lol.

Empathy
I'm concerned about the dogs welfare, however I don't confuse that with being sentimental about the training method and using one that makes me/owner feel good because it sounds nice but which may not get as good a result (because ultimatly that will impact on the dogs welfare). 1000's of dogs are pts every year in the uk for behavioural problems. In may cases these behavioural problems are easy to resolve using the right approach.
If my training saves one dog from being pts I'm quite happy to take all the critism in the world of forums for it.

Adam
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rune
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30-07-2010, 11:32 AM
Figures please on the thousands of dogs pts for behavioural problems---and a breakdown of what those problems are.

You will of course have those at your fingertips or you wouldn't have made the statement----would you?

rune
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wilbar
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30-07-2010, 11:40 AM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
JB
There are more forums than the ones you know me on lol.

Empathy
I'm concerned about the dogs welfare, however I don't confuse that with being sentimental about the training method and using one that makes me/owner feel good because it sounds nice but which may not get as good a result (because ultimatly that will impact on the dogs welfare). 1000's of dogs are pts every year in the uk for behavioural problems. In may cases these behavioural problems are easy to resolve using the right approach.
If my training saves one dog from being pts I'm quite happy to take all the critism in the world of forums for it.

Adam
I think maybe you're confusing empathy & sympathy.

Whilst I have very strong concerns for dogs' welfare issues, I'm certainly not "sentimental" about positive reinforcement being the method of choice in dog training. I prefer positive reinforcement because it gets the best results long term, doesn't have any of the negative fall out that punishment has, and I'm more than happy to back this up with scientific research ~ that's not being sentimental in my book, that's just common sense. I know enough about the problems caused by punishment, both physically & mentally, to realise that this should not be the method of choice in doig training.

As for making a training method "sound nice", isn't that exactly what you're doing when you dress up electric shocks as "stims"?!! Aren't you selling ecollars to unsuspecting dog owners by convincing thm that their dog won't get hurt because you dress up learning theory to disguise what is really going on? If you are going to continue to sell ecollars to your clients at least be honest with them so that they know exactly what they are doing to their dogs!

Yes there are 1000s of dogs pts every year for behavioural problems but please don't think that ecollars will make the slightest bit of difference to these figures. For every dog that you purport to "cure" (& I have huge reservations about the fact that a "cured" dog is still a happy dog), there will be dozens of traumatised & terrified & depressed & shut down dogs where the use of ecollars has gone horribly wrong.
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Adam P
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30-07-2010, 11:41 AM
You work/are associated with rescue aren't you?
I'm sure you know the figures, its pretty common knowledge.

Adam
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Crysania
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30-07-2010, 11:49 AM
Originally Posted by rune View Post
Figures please on the thousands of dogs pts for behavioural problems---and a breakdown of what those problems are.
And a breakdown of how many were not solved by various training methods. Plenty of dogs ARE turned into shelters for behavioral problems but often it's because the owners didn't bother with any sort of training.

Adam, answer me this -- can you name something you with your shock collars could train my dog that I with my positive methods could not?
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Jackie
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30-07-2010, 11:55 AM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
JB
There are more forums than the ones you know me on lol.


Two points, 1) its not jus tme that knows you on other forums 2) If you are on so many forums , when do you get the time to train /shock those poor dogs


Statistically , lets take a figure of 5 forums, apart from one, you are in a minority of one so I guess all the other forums you are on, you have a big following to be able to be so confident you are in the right


Empathy
I'm concerned about the dogs welfare, however I don't confuse that with being sentimental about the training method and using one that makes me/owner feel good because it sounds nice but which may not get as good a result (because ultimatly that will impact on the dogs welfare). 1000's of dogs are pts every year in the uk for behavioural problems. In may cases these behavioural problems are easy to resolve using the right approach.
If my training saves one dog from being pts I'm quite happy to take all the critism in the world of forums for it.

Adam
Your right, we have gotten the fact you have no sentimentality for dogs"

Figures please to back up your claims!!

Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
You work/are associated with rescue aren't you?
I'm sure you know the figures, its pretty common knowledge.

Adam

Do you????
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Adam P
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30-07-2010, 11:55 AM
Tbh many owners give up on training because the dog isn't responding to it in a decent time frame, while many people think this is the wrong attitude the reality is it is the attitude many people have.
E collars do result in quick long term learning. This is much more reinforcing to the owner than persiting with a method that takes longer and ultimatly may not work.

I don't know what your dog does/doesn't do that bothers you. If she's so good why does she need any additional training?

Adam
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