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ClaireandDaisy
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15-04-2010, 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
Claire, I see it as a weak, ineffective and unenforceable piece of legislation that will have little real impact on the well being of dogs in Wales.

Can you convince me otherwise?

Michael
Why should I have to convince you? Are you that special that all legislation needs to meet with your approval?
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MichaelM
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15-04-2010, 04:55 PM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
Why should I have to convince you? Are you that special that all legislation needs to meet with your approval?
It was an invitation to you to write a persuasive post in support of your view that the passing of this act represents a historic day for animal welfare in Wales that will have a real impact.
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Adam P
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15-04-2010, 09:35 PM
No time to chat but this is similar to what I do (if it works lol)
-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zgFTXmJKw4

Adam
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Wysiwyg
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16-04-2010, 10:28 AM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Thank you mini.


Interestingly anytime you use pr you also ue negative punishment.

...
To use the analogy of people. You don't fear bright sunlight you simply avoid it when it gets too hot.

Adam
You seem to be under a misapprehension Adam,probably because i'd imagine you listen a lot to a certain US person . I recognise the arguments, which are flawed.

Wys
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ClaireandDaisy
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16-04-2010, 12:21 PM
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
It was an invitation to you to write a persuasive post in support of your view that the passing of this act represents a historic day for animal welfare in Wales that will have a real impact.
No Michael - you`re the politician, I`m just a voter.
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Adam P
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16-04-2010, 08:50 PM
Emma, it doesn't matter why something was invented it matters what the animal feels.

Wilbar
Never denied the pp angle just consider the reinforcment angle more important.
Respectfully you don't use e collars for stock chasing I do. If what I did didn't work people wouldn't be paying me and I wouldn't be doing it. This does work!
Their shown the correct behaviour by being moved away (made to look away) with the lead, very clear and astonishingly effective, 3 hours from sheep killer to not interested.

The AVSAB are very invested in positive only training, my scientific education would disagree with that statement.

E collars have many benifits too, saving dogs lives, increased quality of life improved owner dog relationship ect.

Rune

Its not pain, I've said this many times but will repeat it as much as you want. The dog learns by repition that it is looking at the sheep that cause the sensation and looking away that stops it.
This is basic learning theroy. Just because everyone's keen on pr approaches doesn't mean the rest doesn't exist. If you don't think a dog can learn quickly and effectivly like this then a dog wouldn't learn quickly and effectivly from any method either.
It's not rubbish, its real life. My clients report being very happy with what I do for them (though most who I use an e collar with still can't tell when I'm using it).

CAD
E collars are way milder than that, like I say most people don't know when I'm using it. I like dogs enough to save and improve their lives.

WYSWIG
Once again basic scientific fact, pr and np go together as do pp and nr.

Video
Similar 9but not identical) to what I do

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzcHXqS25MQ

Adam
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rune
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16-04-2010, 08:52 PM
If it isn't pain and is just a sensation you don't need electicity---you can use a vibrating collar.

Why don't you do that?

rune
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Adam P
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16-04-2010, 08:58 PM
Because my experience of vib collars is they're not as adjustable as e collars which mean the sensation is too much.
If you watch the shep vid you see a normal e collar reaction. With a vib collar the dog is often more startled.

Another good vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9a1j39ZxAM

Adam
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Wysiwyg
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17-04-2010, 07:36 AM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
...The AVSAB are very invested in positive only training, my scientific education would disagree with that statement.
Interestingly, my scientific education does not agree with you

E collars have many benifits too, saving dogs lives, increased quality of life improved owner dog relationship ect.
No, they do not, Adam. Even if for the sake of argument, the odd dog did have a better life - there are still many dogs suffering due to shock collars and having a miserable pressured life. Witness some US/UK gundogs, and enterprises like Hassen's. Plus the many pet dogs who are subjected to their use - read the Case Histories again

Its not pain, I've said this many times but will repeat it as much as you want. The dog learns by repition that it is looking at the sheep that cause the sensation and looking away that stops it.
Use a vibrating collar then, if not, why not?

WYSWIG
Once again basic scientific fact, pr and np go together as do pp and nr.
When do pr trainers use np?
Yes, don't get me wrong - they may choose to use it in certain circumstances, but it's not the same There isn't an automatic following on as there is with using -r (where an aversive has to come first). I think i already know what you are going to say, actually....

Wys
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rune
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17-04-2010, 07:47 AM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Because my experience of vib collars is they're not as adjustable as e collars which mean the sensation is too much.
If you watch the shep vid you see a normal e collar reaction. With a vib collar the dog is often more startled.

Another good vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9a1j39ZxAM

Adam
Thats rubbish.

rune
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