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Lotsadogs
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02-08-2010, 10:20 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post

Dm

I know nothing about sheepdogs, however you presented me with a scenario were trainers are trying to use e collars and not having much success. I (as someone who uses e collars) suggested a way of using e collars in that circumstance that would have more succes. Btw what's your opinion of my suggstion?


Adam
Well you asked .....! So I i will answe/

This is what you said - you want to know my thoughts - - i have answered in bold.

Adam says Re the sheepdogs, no experience of training Well why bother gussing how to train one then?

them but my e collar mantra is We all know what your ecollar mantra is always show the dog how to turn the stim off Well that at least is a lot better an idea than many ecollar trainers!.

In other words don't just put it on command and stim show the dog how to stop the stimThat is very kind of you, allowing th dog an escape form the stress you have deliberatly caused.

With the dog who wouldn't stop you would initialy train the command with the dog on lead beside you, guiding the dog while stimming, Personally I would just take time to train the dog to stop, its not that hard, dogs are pretty bright especially collies - no ecollar needed!

you would then do it with the dog on a longer lead so you can influence its response So I assume the ecollar stim sometimes fails then? Thanks for admitting that.

After lots of repitition Poor dogyou would remove the line. Why?

I know you have to be careful of lines around the sheep ect, Why? - how do you know that if you know nothing of sheepdog training? Ive never had a problem! but using a circlur pen means the dog wouldn't tangle the sheep, also you have to stop him quick. Using a circular pen would allow you, using the balance the dog will ultimately naturally seek, to stop the dog without the need of a line, an ecollar or indeed anything other than nature. No command, nothing, they just stop, when thery realise that you have stopped and them keeping going is pointless. That is the idea of a round pen!d

E;g send 10 feet then stop. Send where?" I dont understand where you are sending the dog and you dont have to stop a sheepdog once it has achieved "balance" that is the whole idea of sheepdog training the dog balances - it stops itself! Gradually increase. Increase what?

As I say no experience of sheepdogs clearly but thats how I would approach it as an e collar user. Well personally I think its a very poor approach indeed which shows utter lack of understanding of sheepdog training, sheepdogs, line use and in some cases dogs in general and certianly empathy toward a dog! A sheepdog, I highly senient, intelligent, sensitive animal, which I would like ot point out, MAY WELL NEED ENCOURAGEMENT TO WORK SHEEP AT ALL, and MANY DO, not discouragement not to work!!!!!!. Many dogs (sensibly) realise that a bunch of sheep two or three times their size and with a head butt that can kill a dog are not actually that much fun to work - they need encouragemnt. Would you have bothered to work out whether the dog was the "need to encourage type" or the "I want to kill sheep type" before using the STIM to teach it to stop, which according to your method is the starting point? You have made some HUGE assumptons about training in this arena and certainly with at least one of my dogs (the best I have trained) would have put them off for life I believe! He needed to be ENCOURAGED to work sheep. Now he is a good strong dog, strong enough to trial and work, but we started by running with him and Whoshing him on and ENCOURAGING HIM! I'm thinking that with your process he would have never, ever,, started working, let alone got this far

What would you do with a dog that hasnt the confidence or desire to work? Stim it until its non working is sufficiently painfull or frightening for it to run toward the sheep????


Iit seems to me that your focus on STOPPING dogs from doing things at all costs has shifted your focus away from reality and toward a very surreal world in which all dogs need to be "controlled" ADAM style, ADAM has to be in control and prove it at all costs. Very sad indeed!

As I say Adam, the more you write the more credence you lose!

And please, for gawds sake, stay away from sheepdog training!
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wilbar
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03-08-2010, 07:09 AM
Very well said Lotsadogs You seem to have hit the nail on the head about AP's training methods being all about stopping/controlling dogs ~ but then what else can you do with ecollars & harsh punishment techniques?
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Adam P
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03-08-2010, 09:52 AM
Dm

Stopping means getting the dog to stop moving round the sheep on command I assumed.

Therefore the stuff I suggested would be for a dog who was difficult to stop (like the example you gave).

Obviouslty the rest of its training would be done normaly, encouraging it to work in the early stages ect. The e collar in these circumstances would seem to be more of a problem solving tool than a training tool.
From the sounds of it you could dispense with the line and introduce the e collar for stopping with the round pen.

Besides if I was actualy working with a wsd, I'd be getting alot of feed back information ect from the owner about the
behaviours the dog requires.

Re battersea

It changes the emotional response because the dog experiences negative reinforcment for being near the other dog and being calm.

Btw I'm not all about controlling dogs, as you put it, just training them.

Adam
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