There's an e-collar trainer who regularly points people to his website which he says shows how benign e-collar are - same guy advised to go straight to a high setting for a young dog who was digging in the garden on a list where e-collars are more accepted. Same guy used to use those first, super strong models routinely in his training

However, talk to him on open lists and he'll never openly admit that he was wrong then and IMHO is wrong now.

Makes you wonder when the next 'quick fix' piece of technological kit comes out whether those using the then 'old' technology will dismiss them and move on to their next round of remote training - sad really

Adam I have asked you these question before but think you may have missed them ....
can you think of any reason why someone would use 2 e collars on a dog at the same time and have you ever done this, if so why?

and a couple more questions based on your replies in another thread..

..does it matter where abouts on a dog you put the e collar, are some areas of the body more sensitive than others eliciting a bigger response to the shock,
..is it acceptable for a trainer to put an e collar on a dog near to its genitals and what could any trainer doing this be attempting to teach the dog .

Appalling and disgraceful ...

If anyone cared about the dog, they'd have looked into why the dog was digging. Probably stress relief as it was being trained with a shock collar, poor poor dog

Wys
x

Adam, Steven Lindsay, so often quoted by shock collar supporters, and sometimes reward trainers too, agrees that shock collar levels are too high for owners and that they should not be so high, AND also that
on higher levels they are extremely painful.

You can't argue with this - it's fact.

Wys
x

i just had a flashback to 2010......

I don't think it's a very good argument to equate all electric shock to pain:

It is possible that a low enough shock is delivered with enough control that it need not necessarily cause pain, and that it even goes unnoticed (e.g. a pacemaker).

I suppose then that gives rise to the following question:

Is it possible to interrupt a dog's behaviour (e.g. chase instinct) with a low enough shock that it doesn't cause pain?

I know that BenMcF thinks not, as her dog went through an electric fence to give chase, but then wouldn't come back through the fence.

I don't know the answer, and my inclination changes from day to day based on the behaviour of my own dog, sometimes I think yes, other times I agree with BenMcF. I do recognise though that it would be a massive temptaion for an owner to misuse an electric collar as a stress reaction.

The difficulty is that we cannot ask the dogs.
IMO Adams theory is flawed as he seems to feel that dogs will only show pain with yelps/jumps etc.

Anyone who has taken the dog to the vet, or watched a nature programme has surely seen the pain that animals can work through without actually 'showing'.

We have had converstions on here about how different people feel pain - I HATE static shocks - and I get them off the van, when I am wearing my fleece - or off Siren (she does not react)....however- I do not scream in pain - I possibly wince, maybe that would equate to an ear flick in a dog? I don't know, but if they respond with an ear flick as I would with a flinch.....then IMO it probably hurts!

Interesting. Easy to get drawn into an argument isnt it. You have to admire Adams will power.

Not really.
Partly because he needs to continue in order to maintain his sales
and partly for the sake of his poor dogs.

You could also just hit the dog a little bit. Or kick it fairly gently. Or maybe use a small whip.
Same thing.
If you hurt your dog you are using pain to train. Some people can reconcile themselves to the idea that hurting their pet is not a betrayal of trust and an abuse of their power.
Happily those people are in the minority.