I would say the success of this depends on what the dog wants.

My dog wants to play with other dogs and if I went through the procedure of tying her up and waiting for her attention before allowing her to play then I have no doubt that by the time I got this the other dog owner would have gone home

How do you put it into practice if you cannot control the environment/reward?

Very interesting.

A lot of these techniques are used to train working trials dogs, as the dog needs a high degree of motivation to clear a 9ft long jumo, a 6 ft scale etc.....

Just been onto eBay and bought the book, and one other, looking forward to a good read.

Thanks for the link, nice one.

Haha, I have that one!

Tis good. Lots in there but I'd say geared very much for the professional dog behaviourist/trainer as well

Wys
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I tend to think it's partly for working on problems but also helpful with dogs who are aroused, etc. I don't think everyone needs to use it but I've certainly found it has helped in the 2 areas I mentioned.

Wys
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Good question. I think it does depend on being able to set up situations and control them (as per the examples given in the book/article).

However, you can also give the dog informative help and guidance - when I used it for LLW, my dog already knew what "loose" meant and I was able to ask for a step, then two then three over a period of a few days until we were starting on a loose lead from the car itself, and walking on LL for about 30 paces.

So in your situation, I might even use a food lure to get him to look at me, or tap my nose or something

If a dog is clicker trained, it is I suspect easier, as they are often used to offering behaviours. But a dog doesn't have to be trained in that way to be able to work things out eventually. #

The other way to look at it is to think that even if it does take ages at first, it may be worth it. I think the author says she gives her dog a certain amount of time and then has a break or something. As long as the principles are followed, it doesn't matter really how you get there as long as it's not an unpleasant route.

Wys
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It's great to get good books isn't it

Wys
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As the owner of two young beagles I can vouch for this technique - it's not dissimilar to the approach outlined in the "When Pigs Fly" book. But it has it's limitations as talassie pointed out as it relies on your ability to control the resources they want the most.

We have no problem keeping our dogs close and attentive. We have a 100% reliable emergency recall and our everyday recall is pretty solid. These things aren't *too* difficult to solve (although it has taken a HUGE effort and I doubt if we'd have managed it if we weren't self-employed with tons of spare time).

The main problem with the Beagle isn't really sniffing. It's their inherrent desire to roam and explore. If we keep ours engaged whilst on walks they'll bounce around us eager for attention. They're so close that they might just as well be on lead!!! If we send them off to play there is every chance they'll suddenly bolt off - perhaps miles away. No discernable warning, no chance of catching them even if you had a trailing line on them. They'll certainly come back...in their own good time, but could easily get lost or killed in the meantime.

When the dog's most prized reward is to run free it's very difficult to have any control once it's running free. Yes, you can let it off-lead as a reward and thus use it as a powerful tool for teaching other things. But once off-lead you cease to have control of the reward so you can no longer use it.

As I've said, we have a reliable recall. In an emergency we *can* call our dog to us and thus prevent it from running off. But as they have a tendency to cover quite a bit of distance you'd have to call them to you quite regularly to keep them within earshot. No matter how well you reward them for coming, and regardless of whether you let them immediately go back to what they were doing, using the recall in this way soon breaks it. They soon learn that you can't offer anything that beats what they are currently doing.

People watching us often think we're making it up. Our dogs can scamper around us like little well trained collie dogs. But they can take of at any moment. It's always a huge risk having them off-lead - even though they are good most of the time.

Freinds have a Beagle who's exceptionally good. The whole family walks him daily and he loves to play with the children. He's not very fit (unlike ours) and he tends not to venture far from the family. Day in, day out, month in, month out he'll potter around safely on his daily walks. Yet every so often he'll dissapear for a couple of hours. Once he spent the whole night in the park chasing foxes (As did the destraught family trying to catch him!!).

Lots of books and methodologies come up with very promising theories. But they often dissapoint by choosing to give examples of the easy to solve problems rather than tackling the real problem.

Well as I said, the Premack Principle certainly helped me, and I use it now to help my clients too so it's not too bad, you know What do you mean by "the real problem"? The author gave a few examples which were not that easy.

It depends on how much the owner wants something, in my view. MOst situations can be controlled in some way initially, even if they are less controlled in others, or when coming upon them unexpectedly. Then once the required behaviour is conditioned, it is much easier to be in the more difficult situation very often, although of course, not always ,because "life happens" and dog training is not prescriptive.

Sometimes you do just have to live with a "problem" .. in the sense that, if you choose a breed likely to run off and want to hunt/chase then you do indeed have certain limitations.

I think as dog owners, it doesn't hurt to just accept them, to be honest. Beagles can be smashing little "obedience" or "agility"dogs (anyone who knows Alex Johnson down here knows this, having seen her Pocket and Hector!) but even a well trained one will very occasionally bog off, usually on the scent of a hare or similar. This is the risk taken with this breed.

Same as if people buy salukis, etc, they may do well in obedience or agility, but every so often their dog may do a "wall of death" or run off for a bit. Lots of good training can lessen this but probably not totally erase it.

Having said that, I do know that excellent, advanced training can become like a reflex and it can override the genes - my dog chasing deer (which I hasten to say, i don't encourage!) turning on a sixpence to run back to me, because I am using a predictive command taught to her by me from teenagerhood.
She hardly "thinks", she just responds.

Previous and less well trained dogs of mine have done quite shocking things such as leapt up on the back of a pony (like a lion, not like a circus rider!) but I can now control this one so much better due to more training knowledge

(I chose a breed that lives to chase, but they are mostly very visually stimulated). I certainly believe that some breeds are harder than others but I do think as I said, we need to appreciate them for what they are and just enjoy them. A great dane will never be a border collie, and hopefully the GD owner will not try to make their dog be like one.


Wys
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As I've said, I can vouch for the approach too. But whilst the Beagle related example given wasn't that easy (what is with a Beagle ? ), it is one of the easier-to-solve Beagle related problems! I've described above the real problem that most Beagle owners face - the one that can result in the death of the dog.

Yes, this is true to an extent. Most Beagle owners will have one or two 'safe places' where they will let their dogs off-lead. They take the dogs there from an early age and the dog establishes certain predictable habits. They are less likely to run off. Yet as I explained with my friends well-behaved beagle, even in his safe place where he did the same well behaved thing day in and day out he'd still randomly take off. The instinct is strong. Another freind's dog was killed recently when it took off from his 'safe place' and got hit by a train.

The breeder of my youngest was horrified that we let them off-lead - ever! Amongst Beagle owners there's a split - half seem to always keep them on-lead and half let them off and take the risk. Few make headway with training.

Exactly!!!!

It's so refreshing to hear someone admit that not all dogs/breeds are the same and not every problem can be solved by bloody 'positive training'. It makes me cross the way some trainers insist that the owners are at fault and then preach some noddy piece of "positive training for dummy's" nonsense that would never in a million years work for a particular dog/breed/problem!!!!

You are quite correct. My Beagles are wonderful at tricks, sports etc. They learn really quickly and the CAN behave like the most well trained Collie you've met. Our oldest learnt the weave polls in a week - she was rock solid and could be sent through, called through...you name it! It's not down to experienced handling - teaching them sports/tricks is childs play. But the trials of the Beagle nature are a tougher nut to crack!

I couldn't care less HOW naughty my Beagles are. I chose the breed because I love them and I don't want to train that out of them.

The one issue that I have is that the dogs have been selectively bred to run free yet because of the traits that have been bred into them it's not safe to let them do what they've been bred to do. This seems almost criminal to me.

So we keep banging our heads of a brick wall trying to do the impossible. We take other approaches to, such us finding controlled outlets for them. They do lots of sports including lure coursing. We've recently purchased a lure and we can use this to let them run free on the beach safe in the knowledge that they are running exactly where we want them to run. We've also just moved to a house with a HUGE garden where they can run and chase all day if they like.

But I'll move heaven and earth to give them more. The oldest is nearly two and a half. Until a few months ago both got off-lead every day in a single safe place and they thrived on it. But the safe habit that we'd established from puppyhood was broken (probably a fox) and we can't get that back.


Yes. We taught ours an emergency recall that works just like that. It's hard wired and we can call them off anything. But sadly you can't use it to control them on a daily basis as it breaks it - they quickly learn that nothing you can give them is as good as what you're calling them away from and the hard wiring breaks down.

So, so true!

Now I have heard from a number of Beagle and other hound owners that have used a shock collar. I'm not in good enough contact with any of these people to get full details but basically they claim that the use of a shock collar under the guidance of an experienced trainer solved this problem quickly and easily and without undue stress to the dog. One in particular that we met recently claimed that they were considering rehoming their hound because they had so many problems. They'd been to numerous trainers and none could help. The root of the problem was that the dog was frustrated at not getting enough off-lead exercise. They finally found a trainer that used a shock collar. She said that they set up a situation in which the dog would fail (wander off too far, or not return when called). The dog was shocked once - it was startled but not hurt. That was it. Once for failing to recall and once for wandering too far. That was several years ago and the dog has NEVER wandered off since. They can let him off-lead anywhere. He's still wearing the collar, but there haven't been bateries in it for years.

Now yes, I agree that you don't choose a breed and then resort to punishment based training because on a whim you want to change it's instincts. But to give it an infinately better life....?

The difficulty lies in finding the right trainer. I'm sure you'll understand what I mean when I say that most trainers aren't that good. They've been on a few courses and learnt a few techniques. A minority are really skilled and tallented. In the case of positive training it doesn't much matter if you choose a duffer - you can't do so much harm with positive training and most people are capable of teaching the basics. But with any kind of punishment based training technique you really do need someone that's highly skilled and experienced. Someone that's able to recognise and willing to admit if the aproach isn't suited to your dog.

Yes, I wasn`t knocking the method - just trying to point out that it may not suit every person or dog.
Scarter - you went out and bought a dog that is pre-programmed to get on a scent and follow it obsessively. I don`t understand why you are surprised when your dog does what it is supposed to do - what it has been born and bred to do. Maybe a more realistic expectation of what your dog can and can`t do would be an idea?
I have a hunting hound and I would not dream of expecting him to come off a scent of game in open country. Of course he won`t. That`s why they hunt these dogs on a line and run along behind them (where he comes from). In parks and on beaches he is obedient and has good recall. But it is up to me to anticipate trouble and avert it - so if I see him begin to track, I call him in before the adrenaline kicks in.
My shorthaired pointer is also a hunter - but has been bred to be a `people` dog, and is easier to manage in the field because of this. But I had to study what gundog people did and spend a long time letting him teach me about being an HPR dog. .
Each breed and each dog is different - which is why flailing about for a `method` without first understanding your dog is doomed to failure.