Yes, we will get burned. Every day an unscrupulous breeder advertises, or 'gets away' with selling their dog via the site it will hurt like hell.

But I can't think of any other way to get to that crucial stage of prospective dog buyers - the beginning. When they start looking for dogs and just before they make the mistake that so many do.

We'd love nothing more for people to do their research first and be very careful where they buy from - but they just aren't doing that right now. Despite the efforts of the RSPCA, the Dogs Trust and all other charities (which of course we're grateful for) it is still, alarmingly, going on far too much.

The first stage would be to offer whatever it is that the current leading 'classifeds' sites offer - in an effort to kill them off/replace them.

We'll then start to add our messages/advice and perhaps do other things too - but it will only work if we become the most popualr site - ie the one people will find when they search for 'akita puppies for sale', etc.

Not exactly. I think it would be next to impossible for any site to vet every single breeder - look at the KC for example, with all their revenue you still get bad (and good) KC breeders.

So instead we'll try to make sure prospective pet owners get what we think is good advice, and tips and what to look out for. I think your point below demonstrates another good reason why we ought to do it this way.

You're right - it boils down to opinion. And what we'll do is offer our opinion, but be fair and balanced (and not extremist - as that just puts people off) with negatives and positives and then let people make up their own mind. Maybe we will add a message from the RSPCA, or the Dogs Trust - or even well written, thoughtful opinions by you guys. My main concern is that people are not getting that advice now - because the other sites don't really give a monkeys.

You're right - that would confuse the heck out of them But the top will never say that - because that gives out the wrong impression (it makes it sound like all the ads are by ethical breeders - but we know they're not). Our message will actually be the opposite we'll say something like "hey, we know there are good and bad breeders, and we know that there are more bad breeders out there than good - but it would be impossible to vet every breeder, so instead we'll give you the knowledge on how to do it yourself - and potentially save yourself from heartache and problems down the road."

Do you see where I'm coming from? I told you it was a crafty approach

I know what you're saying - but if I have you guys on my side I can do it, and live with what other people think - because they don't know what our intentions are or that we have a master plan, one that might actually do more than what has ever been done before.

You demonstrate another good point - Dogsey isn't the first port of call for the majority of would-be owners, those sites are. People tend to come to us _after_ they've got a dog (and usually when something's gone wrong).

We want (and need) to reach people at the very start, before they've even bought a dog - and I believe that's where those sites are key. Hence this idea.

These are all great ideas. We really must keep in mind that to begin with we have to become the devil himself - odd as that might sound. We basically have to beat them at their own game first (give them what they want) and then, when we're a leading site in the field, slowly get our message across - do you see what I am getting at? I know it's a crazy idea but I can't think of anything else that will get us in with prospective dog owners at that stage :/

Hi Chaz, could you do me a favour and read over the thread please? Much of what you have said has already been covered, and many of the concerns you have needn't be a worry afterwards if you still have questions or concerns and I will do my best to answer them I'm not being lazy, just I think the thread is full of really good questions and concerns like the ones you have, and my answers will help give you a better picture of what we're trying to achieve.

You are right, it won't be a chat/forum - but a site where you'll get two types of people, those want to sell/rehome a dog, and those (and more crucially for us) that want to buy or adopt a dog. And yes it will be free (it has to be to compete with the current leaders).

I think I covered it in my last reply to you - but the main point is we'll have a voice, and some influence, where it counts - ie. those people who are just about to get a dog.

As you know 99% of people who come to Dogsey, already have one - so we need to find a way to get to people before they get one... if that makes sense.

Yes there are - but it's clear they don't give a monkeys. We do, and while to begin with we'll be stealth, over time we will instigate change and hopefully change attitudes - and hopefully at the most crucial stages

I will live with it because they would have bought it anyway of another site, but at least we tried to get them to know better.

We won't win every time, if we help just 10,000 people that will be a huge plus. And killing off those sites will be an achievement in itself, imo.

I can understand that. I do think though that including just a couple of articles right from the start could be a help. Even if it is not completely what you are aiming for in the long run, even people who don't know what they are looking for would be interested to hear what to look for -

Perhaps just simple things to begin with such as make sure you can see both parents etc, ask lots of questions, never transfer any money online, do not buy until you have seen etc.
A little puppy shopping list
Teething article etc.
Toilet training
How to spot a puppy farmer.. what is puppy farming etc.

These do not have to be prominent items that stop people from doing whatever they are going to do with or without your site, they can just be a little article linked on the homepage or left banner for example. These simple little articles may help to make people who are well intentioned, but ill informed make a better choice, and I dont see why something like this couldn't be implemented from the start as it is not stopping them, its just there for those who snoop around enough to find it!

In order to make yourself the top site for this sort of thing, surely you have to slightly improve on another site otherwise why would they come to you?
Of course that could be down to things such as design and usability, that is afterall the reason why I use dogsey. I have to be honest, I have looked at other sites but they look so un-user friendly I have never even bothered to read a thread... I was lucky to stumble across dogsey really as it is full of great people.
What I'm saying is I dont think a bit of interesting content would go amiss and may infact be the reason why people look at your site - as it offers USEFUL (but at the start non-judgmental), just FACTUAL information

From my experience, around 50% of people who are looking for a pet shop puppy are interested to hear why its not a good idea. Of course the other 50% dont care and will do it anyway.. but if these stats are realistic, that means 50% of visitors to a site might be interested to read what the best things to look for in buying a puppy may be.

Wow well that was long-winded, hope it makes sense!

Some really good points there Chaz.

We always planned to do a breeders directory here on Dogsey - but I think far too many people search for 'Akita pups for sale' rather than 'Akita breeders' - because far too many people 'want it now'... hence if we're able to get a message to them at that crucial stage it's good right?

Re special cases like 'ex breeders' we will again have impartial advice that contains both negatives and positives - we want to be fair and we don't want to tell people what to do - we just want them to know the implications of their actions (and in this case there is obviously positive and negative - will be saving a life, but at the same time making it easy for puppy factories). We have to let people make up their own mind - but we must find some way of getting to them before they get their dog.

Thanks LS - glad I am making 'some' sense I can see JB's pov too. I reckon we can do it tho, so long as we think about the greater good

This was one of my first concerns too. But I think so long as we are transparent, and people know what we intend to do, I think it will be ok. As I said to JB, so long as I got you guys behind me I think we will be fine - because I think you guys know me pretty well now and know how much I care about animal rights and responsible owners ship and will trust that I have the best intentions of animals in mind.

Even if we just kill some of those sites, that will be a huge plus.

I'm sure there are some not-so-nice people who think that already but I really don't care about them. My concious is clear and I know we're are trying to do good. Even if we just manage to kill off those sites, it will be an achievement. If we do make money, then it will help with the development of that site (site B) where we aim to raise £1M for pet charities, and then when site B is live, the ad site will be great to give it exposure and send new dog owners there. It's a win win win all round

Dogsey rules will remain, no puppy farmers, no e collars sellers. That in itself will send out a huge signal (because right now those people aren't even coming to us).

I don't think there will be any negative crossover from Dogsey to their - because our members know better, and people who come here usually pick up on our ethics.

If it ever became a problem, we would break links/ties with the two sites - but I can't see that happening tbh.

Haha your last sentence is my point exactly I too wish I had 'known better' (even tho I researched for over a year! But sigh, I was looking at the wrong things! duh).

Any positive promotion we can get out there the better, imo. That's why I think it's really worth giving this a go.

There's actually more that I am not saying here, so might post that in the Sponsors-only section later

Do you mean Dogsey? Dogsey will stick by it's rules (that's part of the point )

Re the other bit - if we feel certain 'breeds' need special advice we'll offer it. Come to think of it, perhaps every breed needs a positive/negative article accompanying it...

Good point

We will of course operate within the law. And work closely with the RSPCA where necessary

Yes makes perfect sense and again some excellent ideas I think we'd want to do all of them, just creep them in slowly if need be.

Step 1 - is to kill off the other sites
Step 2 - is start to instigate change

It it sounds like a battle plan, that's cos it is - it's war