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Location: Tayside
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 680
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10-01-2011, 07:23 PM
Originally Posted by Tassle 
The difficulty is that we cannot ask the dogs.
IMO Adams theory is flawed as he seems to feel that dogs will only show pain with yelps/jumps etc.
Originally Posted by Tassle
Anyone who has taken the dog to the vet, or watched a nature programme has surely seen the pain that animals can work through without actually 'showing'.
Originally Posted by Tassle
We have had converstions on here about how different people feel pain - I HATE static shocks - and I get them off the van, when I am wearing my fleece - or off Siren (she does not react)....however- I do not scream in pain - I possibly wince, maybe that would equate to an ear flick in a dog? I don't know, but if they respond with an ear flick as I would with a flinch.....then IMO it probably hurts!
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Location: london.uk
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Location: UK
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Posts: 9,065
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10-01-2011, 07:29 PM
Originally Posted by MichaelM
I'm inclined to agree with that in isolation.
BenMcF gave a good example of that with her dog - it would seem that her dog did feel the shock but was willing to "work through it" for the sake of the chase. I can think of a similar scenario with my own (but won't bore you with the details). I'm inclined to agree with Ben's view on this - the dog felt it and remembered it.
Not a fan of static shocks myself - I'd imagine that you're flinch would equate to more than a flick of the ear though.
I am not making any noise, and I am not moving off the spot.
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Location: Essex, UK
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10-01-2011, 07:39 PM
They don`t feel it.
It`s for their own good
It doesn`t really hurt (well I don`t feel it)
I don`t believe it really causes them distress.
If they behaved they wouldn`t get punished.
They get over it - look how they fawn on me.
In the end it comes down to empathy. If you can`t feel another`s pain you can`t understand the distress you are causing, I suppose.
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Location: Usually in a muddy field somewhere
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10-01-2011, 08:01 PM
Originally Posted by Azz
Sounds like somebody has lost their argument.
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
I agree with the latter statement but it bears no relation to using an e collar in training. See my other posts about using it at the first level the dog feels ect.
I look at it this way. Lets say you have speakers/headphones. There will be a volume on them that is too low for you to hear, there will be a volume that you can hear comfortably.
In the same way speakers have different levels to accomadate different hearing e collars have different levels to accomadate different dogs.
Adam
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Location: UK
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10-01-2011, 08:06 PM
Originally Posted by Lucky Star
Indeed!
When my dog is in full flow, you'd really have to give him one hell of a shock for him to take a blind bit of notice. Is that acceptable to you, to get him to comply?
People who train this way are not interested in the Welfare of the dog - just the quick results for the owners.
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Location: Tayside
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10-01-2011, 08:13 PM
Originally Posted by Tassle
How would you know?
I am not making any noise, and I am not moving off the spot.
I was reflecting on how I remember a static shock felt - as a reflex action I pulled my arm away, it was a bit more than a flinch, and I suspect that a dog would do more than flick its ear.
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Location: Usually in a muddy field somewhere
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10-01-2011, 08:14 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer
Do you avoiding sitting in uncomfortable positions in the car?
Do you avoid staring at bright lights?
Do you put a coat on when its cold?
If you do you have been aversive trained without pain!
Adam
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Location: UK
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10-01-2011, 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by MichaelM
Well......... I don't.
I was reflecting on how I remember a static shock felt - as a reflex action I pulled my arm away, it was a bit more than a flinch, and I suspect that a dog would do more than flick its ear.
I know the van is going to get me when I have my fleece on and I am lifting Siren out, but I have to close the door - so I brace and I do it.
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Location: South Wales, UK
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10-01-2011, 08:23 PM
Originally Posted by MichaelM
I don't think it's a very good argument to equate all electric shock to pain:
It is possible that a low enough shock is delivered with enough control that it need not necessarily cause pain, and that it even goes unnoticed (e.g. a pacemaker).