SB: I don't think it's suitable as I can't see how it will help his recall is I try to train it in socialisation class when I cannot reward him. Surely that would only weaken his recall? I would be fantastic if I could use the set up, but I do understand the no treats rule when the dogs are off lead. We do a bit of recall training at the end sometimes when the dogs are on lead, and he never fails in that set up. They are running their own recall workshop next week, in that field, so I will get to use it to my advantage then but I expect the other dogs will be on lead as treats will be used.

Maisie'sMum and BenMc: Not all of the class dogs are problem dogs. Some are problems dogs. There are always at least two-three official teaching dogs, plus "guest" teaching dogs who are often ex-problem dogs who have improved their skills and come along to help out. The idea is that the dogs learn from each other. I'm sure it is helping Cain. While his off lead manners still need some work, his general tolerance of dogs is so much better, it is helping him.

Would sticking him on a really long longline in an empty place and trying to keep him close with rewards etc help? He may not 'realise' he's on the long line if he doesn't get to the end of it....? I do tend to just let him march off to the end of his lead and sniff as he wishes.

Do you hold the long line then?

Of course training him on a long line with no distractions and using rewards will help. Is there another way to train your dog to stick with you?

Sorry but I think it is mad not to have a reward in the situation you describe.

What you are aiming towards is absolute attention on you---as everyone else in the class should be. You have no chance if you can't offer somehting.

Its a bit difficult to make suggestions without involving rewards.

rune

I can't offer any dog advicecas I'm new to dogs, but is it possible to have a word with the horses owner? I wouldn't want my horse loaning around and running a line of electric fencing a couple of meters or so inside the fence may make the dogs too far away to warrant playing with.

Not much help but just a few points:

1) There are some horses in Horton, which are in wide fencing (which dogs can run under), which could be useful for habituating him to horses. They are not nutty like your class horse but still could help?

2) Just in defense of MMs class as some people seem to think of it as a chaotic mess; in the time I have known Cain he has become way less focused on other dogs, and Amanda, don't forget the good bits like him recalling away from all those other dogs on the other side of the fence when he was off lead.
Although I can see not being able to reward him makes it difficult for you to want to ask, and it's not really representative of the outside world where you would be able to shower him in squeaks and treats!

3) You are welcome to use Basset or Kestral as some kind of stooge. I think I will be having Roxy for the next couple of weeks too. They are good passive dogs (less pathetic than K) if you wanted to practice with them if you are feeling brave. My family house has a nice big enclosed garden for practising dog distracting recalls.

No actual constructive help though I'm afraid!

I know It's the perfect environment to practice, but I really do understand why treats are not allowed during off lead time. Sigh. What can you do? Those are the rules. And it's why I've got a bit stuck, as he's knows when he's on lead at other times.

To be fair, the class is meant to be situation for the dogs to focus on other dogs, interact and learn from each other. Obviously you want them to also focus and listen to you (which is why we do set ups and on lead work with treats too) but essentially they are supposed to be learning a new set of social skills. It's a bit much to expect them to have perfect obedience at the same time too. Obviously you're striving for both eventually but we can't do it all in one go. If they all walked around focused on the owners, not interacting, then it misses the point of the class. The point is to allow interactions to learn social skills, not just management.

Maisie's Mum, yeah I hold the end of the long line, but he'll march to the end of it, it's rarely slack so he knows he's on a lead again. I guess i'll need to try and rehearse keeping him closer than the end of the line on walks.

Thanks, it was constructive Might have to head to Horton. Yes I know he recalled really well away from those dogs in Richmond, but the problem was that he ran up first. I want to stop him feeling the need to approach in the first place. What I may do is instead of walking him away from other dogs, let him begin towards them on walks then recall him away with heavy rewards. Hopefully if every time he sees a dog, he starts to associate it with running towards me and getting rewards, it will become a habit to come to me when he sees a dog instead of going over then being called away.

Well I wouldn't hold the line, just step on it if you need to. When I unclip the lead off any of my dogs the first thing they do is look at me to see if they are going to get a treat or the ball or tug toy will come out of my pocket. Marching off for a sniff is the boring part of the walk for them.

I don't see how having treats in your pocket will cause dogs to fight in class.

Also what you are saying about the point of the class is to socialise but on the other hand you want to train Cain to not go steaming in being rude. Both can happen but not without using any rewards.

Well a teaching dog usually steps in and stops rude, running dogs.

I hold the long line because I fear that if I drop it, he'll do his dash thing and I won't be able to stamp on it in time He frequently wonders further away than the length of the long line so is out of reach. I either need to keep him closer or get a longer line....

Cain wasn't happy when approached by Kestral last week when I was rewarding him. I do believe that pockets full of smelly treats could potentially cause problems. And either way, that is the rules, I can't go against them even if I disagreed. I wish I could use treats, but I totally understand why not.