cheers rune

but i cant take the credit, its MichaelM whom spotted the logic hole in the 'you cant use wolves as a basis for the rank status rule for dog training, as Mech says the original Schenkel wolf studies that this was based on was on an unnnaturally created captive pack'.
that being...err, then surely captive wolf packs parallels 'captive dogs', so the Schenkel study is right to be used for a source of dog training theory, evne if it was wrong for being used as a source of study for wolf behaviour.
(After all, we just discovered that Mech did say you can use and descrive schenkel's wolves in heriachal terms).

You are right Rune, in our quest to debunk the wolf-dog connection that people like Jan Fennell churrn out without having actually thought about the validity of what they are saying, we have ended up making exactly the same mistake....churning out the opposite party lines that we have read in several books, without examining all the statements for ourselves.

So both sides are reponsbile for propogating a meme.

You see this often......for example, training books have being saying for years that you shouldnt feed your dogs too much protein as its contributes to aggression and hyperactivity.
Yet the books do not precede nor follow that statment with the reason why that is so.
My vet couldnt explain explain why this statement was so, even after he had made it!
(When you think about it...and i did...it doesnt make sense, as the most powerful energy source is carbs, not protein!...and i made that link from studying Tour De France carb loading)

So new trainers etc have worked out this has no basis in fact nor examination, so now the popular line is the opposite: to say that this is a myth.

However, when you ask those people what their evidence and research is, they too just copy something they have read, also having not thought it thru fully.
For example, this link gets thrown up often:
http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index....e=protein_myth
Which is just a link explaining how too much protein isnt related to illnesses!

So the point is dont get sucked into memes, or the fable of "my grandmothers cooked ham", as i call it.

So thanks to MichaelM for making me think.
I still have issues why i think any wolf pack studies, free or captive, arent relevant to the practice of dog training, but at least i will give better thought to my reasoning now before just making statements i have read elsewhere.

society is full of memes....celts in the Uk being another biggee.

No doubt there is, over some things, in certain circumstances.

If I didn't know better I would say that Wilma is "dominant" over Barney because:
[LIST][*]If Wilma has something edible that Barney wants, he won't challenge for it, but sits & looks longingly at the chew, then at me, then at the chew ~ he couldn't make it anymore plainer as to what he wants me to do
[*]If Wilma's lying across a doorway, Barney won't walk over her or past her, but sits patiently trapped in the room, until Wilma moves, or we move Wilma.

But if I'm on the sofa having a cuddle with Wilma, Barney has no compunction about climbing on top of Wilma, wriggling till she's forced off the sofa, then settling down in her place! And if we're out & about & a young, playful dog romps over, Barney's the first to greet it, check it out & decide what to do ~ Wilma stands pateiently to one side & waits to see what the other dog is like (sensible behaviour in my book!).

But I've watched how these responses to each other have developed since Wilma came to live with us, & I know Barney's background, even if I don't know Wilma's, so in the light of this, it helps me understand what's going on.

But yes, they're all individuals, have different experiences & have developed different coping responses.

I don't think you see so much heirachy with less than 4 dogs---that is when it seems to me competition kicks in more and resources become more important----big generalisation I know but I know a lot of people with groups of dogs of various sizes.

I also know that I have an optimum number that the space I provide can cope with without there being important niggles. Interestingly it doesn't seem to depend on the make up of the group in any way, it is the numbers.

I find the interactions fascinating.

rune

Me too ~ I can watch groups of dogs interacting for hours .

As for the available space being important, I come across this so often in feline behaviour cases. People assume that because cats are small, that all the food, warmth & shelter they need is available, then you can have lots of cats living in the same house.......Nooo, it's the biggest cause of behavioural problems in cats!!

But cats have not been subjected to domestication in the same way that dogs have, they haven't been bred so selectively & changed in appearance so dramatically as dogs, & haven't been traditionally used in a functional way by humans. So the studies conducted on colonies of stray & feral cats are far more useful in the study of pet cat behaviour, than it would be for dogs.