You can tell in those two clips which is the happier dog and it's not hard to tell why. That said I think it is hard to talk about 'punishment' as one entire entity. There is a world of difference in my mind between using a prong collar and hitting your dog with the lead (for example) and standing still or turning and walking a few steps in the opposite direction if your dog is pulling (for another example). In the first you are causing pain to your dog, in the second denying it the thing it wants but not actually hurting it (unless you have to drag it or it tries choking itself).

I would possibly use the second method if needed (although with Oscar it was easier to offer him the treats he liked when he walked nicely than anything else) but never the first.

I took him to a dog training club and the trainer and I disagreed regularly because he wanted me to put Oscar on a choke chain (although he called them 'check chains' - probably thinks it sounds nicer) even when he was only 5 or 6 months old and I wouldn't do it. Every week he'd ask me where my check chain was and I'd say I don't have one, I don't see any need for one. And I have to say Oscar was much better behaved than many of the dogs there and relished training unlike some who couldn't wait to get out of there. He got his kennel club good citizen bronze award at the age of 1 year and 1 month!

So, the summary of that waffle is that I don't think punishment such as the first clip works at all and just ends up with an unhappy dog, but not all 'punishment' is the same.

But at that point, that's where you've gone wrong. You haven't generalised. I'm sure by the way you're talking it would be no news to you that heeling in a garden is much easier at first than heeling in a more reactive environment. I think to say that that method is flawed because it didn't work for you is a bit ignorant when you can then say that paragraph there. It all comes down to correction is a quicker fix. I personally don't like the majority of corrections HOWEVER I'm not suggesting you've been bad for turning to it. I'm mostly just saying you can't say one method is flawed because you personally haven't done it right. The reason I don't like corrections is not only because I can't do them, but because after further research they are there to hide, not train.

LOL you should meet my Saluki!! Cheese would not persuade him that a field isn't worth running around in, but I know what you mean in the sense that if cheese is more rewarding to the dog, you then get results. (At least I'm guessing that's what you mean!). If it isn't cheese, reward with something else. BAT is a wonderful thing.

And mishflynn (sorry no idea of your name lol!) thank yooou for the comments on my pooopie. It's a genius way of training it! I do think you can probably do both normal heelwork & "formal" from that, I basically taught Pogs that her back has to lean against me, but you can always shape it so your dog is just casually walking along with you.. I think haha, never done it!

Its Michelle!

Very well said Aligord!

Yes, I agree completely. That's kind of what I've been getting at.

If you, I or anyone can't get a training technique or method to work it doesn't *necessarily* mean that it's a bad technique - just that it's failed for us with a given dog in a given situation. That could be down to handler error, lack of experience of the techniques, failure to fully understand the techniques, poor choice of technique for a given problem....or (god forbid) perhaps some techniques work better with some dogs than others.

To be abundantly clear - I don't BLAME any method per-se. I do however think the wrong choice of method for a given dog in a given situation can lead to problems. As can the poor implementation of a given method. I think reward only training works wonders - I use it for almost everything. BUT in some situations (such as the one I've described in this thread) I find other methods to be more suitable and in the long term, kinder.

I know of lots of people that don't make much use of rewards in training - for the most part they expect their dogs to do what they're told without reward. Their approach isn't for me and I really don't think it'd work with my "what's in it for me" Beagles (Although to be fair I've never asked them to explain their methods to me in detail), but I have to conceed that they love their dogs, their dogs are happy, well balanced and well trained and their dogs most certainly don't fear them. I would also say that one of them is a trainer in one of the canine sports we do and she's homed in on quiet a few things with our two that have let us make good progress with them. She without a doubt relates very well to dogs and mine adore her. I think if these people were here they might just be echoing your sentiment - "Just please stop blaming a method you clearly don't have the knowledge or ability to carry out".

Well said - much better to be direct than my beating about the bush and trying to be subtle!!

Sorry, I wasnt being clear there - I was replying to Scarter about dogs being distracted by something - As far as I have seen pretty much evrey dog will find SOMETHING that is far far more interesting than whatever you have as a motivator, especially if the dog dosent know the behaviour well enough. You have to train them to enjoy the training

I love the brick way to teach heelwork - I have been starting it with my two and it is great fun (Ben was a little slower cos the first thing I used wabbled slightly - but now I have got something more stable he is enjoying it)

Also you need to be fair to the dog,

i dont really ask for "everyday" Heeling, as my dogs do Competition HW i feel teaching "loose lead" walking would be "against" what im trying to achieve,

So if they pulll abit going to the park i put up with it.

I know Scarter Cani Xs/ runs her dogs, this defintally could cause confusion with the dogs "mixed messages " , so think its then abit unfair to expect them to walk nicely to Heel at other times & very unfair to punish/ negatively reinforce a dog if you are asking it to walk to heel if the day before youve asked it to pull u up a mountain.

You cant train for Everything & somtimes have to let other things go, in expense of others, otherwise you arent been fair & the dogs can get confused.

Ah Scarter I apologise, I was reading it the other way!

With the CaniX thing, no idea how other people do it but I know my friend's have said that their dog recognises harness = flyball, flat collar = walk. So I would assume it works in a similar way?

No problem macagyp - it was apparent that you'd got the wrong end of the stick!

We don't do much in the way of cani-cross, but we do a little running with cani-cross gear and we also use the gear when hill-walking etc. And yes, you're absolutely right - the dogs have no problem understanding when they can and can't pull.

We do racing, lure-coursing, hill-walking, running, flyball, agility, swimming etc with ours. Different rules apply to each sport but they wear different collars, harnesses, jackets etc for each. They automatically switch into the correct mode depending on what they're wearing, where they are etc. They didn't need to be taught this.

Being a bit picky sorry but both of those are the removal of the "reward" so both are negative punishment.

Positive punishment involves adding something (anything from a leash jerk to a slap etc) which diminishes the behaviour.


Wys
x

Isn`t this a really long-winded way of describing normal animal management. I sometimes think we over-intellectualise dog training.
Dog wants to get to the park so rushes. Every time he rushes he is stopped from getting what he wants. Eventually he learns.
In the same way you ignore a child having a tantrum to get what he wants, and teach him to ask nicely when he`s calmed down. It`s all a very simple learning process.
If a behaviour works, the dog (or child) will do it again.