Sorry - I just assumed with the Sarloos - guess it's back to research for me...

Louie's a very submissive dog by nature - he always has been, I can't put a harness on him without making him sulk a little, he'll take tidbits but not like usual (he's fine once it's on) With treats and a clicker I am getting him slowly to get used to this feeling.
He's got an ear infection and at the vets, the vet had to lift him on the table - never met the man in his life but because I had him looking at me and choc drops - he was fine - he also allowed the vet to stick a scope down his ear. And through training - he rolls over for his ear drops and it's not pleasant for him but he will still do it as he trusts me.

I cannot imagine - like Tassle - sticking an e-collar on him to do all these things. An e-collar isn't going to help him get used to strangers - in his mind it will probably be:

Move away from Stranger = shock. Stand next to stranger = stress, stress = praised which in turn means the dog will learn to be stressed not to trust strangers!

I find it very hard to even read these threads -the thought of this person dealing with any dog let alone a nervous, already abused rescue literally turns my stomache.

But I do wonder how he would continue training without the ability to use such devises - it 'might' be interesting to hear how he would go about it when he does not have the quick fix available to him? Im not sure if he has answered this before as I tend not to view these threads very much.

My understanding is that The Saarloos have a genetic fear - so you kind of expect it.

But I have a dog who was 100x worse than Zeff! (He just happens to be a spaniel x!)

No you are not the only one..........I am not only repulsed by some things that I have read on this thread, but have felt physically sick.

Anyone who uses an e-collar, no matter what the "excuse" or pathetic justification, to my mind is a barbaric throw back to less enlightened times.

Ohh..I suppose though any dog can be as fearful and untrusting as the next one.

But Adam - training isn't just if it doesn't work with a clicker - stick an e-collar round it's neck - which by the recurrent theme of your posts, I assume you're one of these culprits...apologies if not, but I say positive rules overall - you just have to get inventive with it - if not you are a very boring trainer.

Training should be fun - shocks of any magnitude do not scream fun to me!

Perhaps we are being forewarned that a certain type of trainer may go underground if such became law, and continue to use them.

After all, the popular TV trainer with initials CM uses them, but it's kept quiet to the viewing public, and we're expected to be in awe of his 'magical powers'

Actually there is one episode - or a few I believe where he does use them.. it's not considered all that inhumane in America - I don't think - not sure

A completely different analogy to when it used as a punishment!


They are stoic?
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/stoic

" ... seemingly ... indiferent to pain ..."

The key is in the word "seemingly"!

If you were a true empathetic dog trainer, you would know this. But you are not and you do not.



You are talking b*ll*cks - to use your non-intelligent words. You do not know my dog or his background, yet you make this assumption, regardless of me telling you that it would not work. So I have to assume that you ignore the owner when you take a dog for what we shall loosely refer to as "training".

Now listen, Adam, if you can ... my dog, after a very quick learning period, would take no notice at all of your 'annoying' minor "stims" - he would be far more interested in finding out about the world around him. But you didn't ask that, did you? Just stick on the collar and away we go, eh, no matter what the situation? That seems to be your philosophy.

What does work for my dog is empathy and mutual respect - but you didn't even touch on that - you'd rather just go straight to punishment. Find the level of stim and shock the dog - b*ll*cks (to copy your word) to actually learning about the dog as a "sentient being".

It's believed there are more. He takes clients' dogs away for a private session without owner present, and the dog magically responds to the Tsst! afterwards.

Have you ever said Tsst! to your dog? (Mine decides to chase my cat). Anyone who understands training knows that could only have been paired to an aversive to get such an instant and compliant response.

Same old same old

Not a shock just a stim, dogs don't feel it the same as we do, reward based training is really stressful for the dog, I get dogs to trust quicker than you do..............etc etc.

It would be so boring and actually very funny to read AP's regurgitation of his two gurus----if it wasn't for the fact that he shoves these devices on living creatures and gives them shocks.

I'd so love to put one on him and teach him to do something----he is welcome to teach me something using a clicker and chocolates! I could even teach him to stay in a 3 ft area around me----but I bet he wouldn't trust me!

rune