Thank you Joedee, couldn't have put it better

Thanks Sarah, exactly my point.

I'd just like to also point out that all the Weimaraners I have ever met at shows can (and lots do) do their job perfectly well. Working and show Weimys bear very little difference at all, it is usually preffered if your Weimy works as well as being shown.

My bitches' sire and progency have taken the place of b.o.b at crufts the past 3 years and all of them work too.

Unfortunately there are no wild boars running around Anglesey or i guess mine would have a go

All my Borders are and have been show bred, all work above and below ground.
Dawn.

Are they heck !
A pup from the best natured parents in the world can become aggressive or difficult. Barring medical cause, its the upbringing which matters, way more than the genes and even in those where genes are a factor at least behaviours can be worked on with a chance of good outcome.

A dog with eyes popping out when they sneeze or whose hips fall out of the sockets if the dog turns tighter or faster than a slow lumbering arc is a horrendous situation for the dogs, and those problems are created for looks only, certainly not for good health.

I keep getting told by the KC [ blech ] that its breeders who come up with breed standards so all the crippled suffering breeds out there, well we know whose to blame then dont we - the breeders who come up with these ridiculous caracatures of what they think a dog should look like, the breeders who just go along with it, and yes the KC for not barring unhealthy breeds from the ring.
They can bar `unrecognised` breeds, so they can throw out damaged breeds until they are restored to good general health too as far as I`m concerned.
Why wont they ?
It can only be down to revenue loss - as usual its money over health and good sense imo

There are some breeders who *do* breed strictly for health, [ which in many cases makes for better temperament anyway if a dog is not suffering in the first place ! ], and many of those are totally shunned by the KC and the show world when they, [ good health breeders ], are the ones who should be writing the standards imo.

I still want Collies to be revoked from the ring, I hate seeing whats happening to the breed since their inclusion

shows do not change the frame of any breed from a working line to a show lines its the breeders that do that.
i know there is dogs that seem to fit into the types for the breed but tob does ok in the ring and has more than enough muscle or power to work which his breed was supposed to do so there is dogs out there that can be both.
i would hope any person who shows would consider the health issues relating to the breed before any mating has taken place but the fact the dogs are in the ring doesn't change the genetics or the future of the breed.

you could go along the lines what do you get if you put a show dog to a working dog but at the end of the day as long as both dogs are stable etc then you should still get nice pups or good lines for the future of the breed.

Thats never going to happen now Patch, the exhibit numbers in Collies is HUGE and in such a short space of time too, shame really.
Dawn.

But the breeders do it for the purpose of showing.

Some years ago a friend wanted a Belgian Shepherd. The process for him buying from the breeder he went to was longwinded and difficult [ so it should be !!! ], anyway, the breeder was disgusted at a move to breeding smaller bitches for the show ring but not smaller males. Why change the natural longstanding conformation from one height and build to another when there was nothing wrong with how they were, and why create potential whelping problems for smaller bitches having male pups proportionally larger than suitable for the bitch to pass ?

Nearly 15 years on, at every agility show I go to, what do I see ?
Mostly tiny very slightly built Belgians, nothing like the size they were originally. I also know one from a `reputable show breeder` and this dog is a nervous wreck in temperament and certainly not through any mistreatment by the owner.

Alsatians these days, I see far too many which are a timid shell of what the breed should be, those from show breeders mostly [ a generalisation I know but thats what I have been seeing increasingly ].

Re collies, all mine are completely different to each other in build, size, shape and colour - thats what is being lost to the show ring as well as brain power.

Sure, at the moment there are collies doing well in the ring as well as in herding, agility, obedience and other activities, but BCs in the show ring are still relatively new in terms of generations. Give it time and I can just imagine a load of clone collies which cant be told apart from each other except by the owners and which might as well be zombies in the brains department, and for what - a bit of show ring prestige and some frilly rosettes ?
The potential cost is just too high imo

your right a dog can have a go at any other dog at any given time.
this could happen in a ring but it could also happen when your out walking on a field or street.

if a dog has a agression problem what ever the breed or the fact it is shown or not won't change the dogs nature.

if you had a dog with agressive nature you really wouldn't get far in any show or ring to be honest your'll be waisting your time even going.

i have been on a small field with over 200 leos all close together male/female of all age groups from 6 months to 7+ walked around and through crowds but i have never seen any type of fighting from any dog thats there in or out the ring.
and this can be said for other shows as well all breeds together of all sizes.

Patch said
Give it time and I can just imagine a load of clone collies which cant be told apart from each other except by the owners and which might as well be zombies in the brains department, and for what - a bit of show ring prestige and some frilly rosettes ?
The potential cost is just too high imo

Thats a bit harsh, The zombies I see are the poor dogs welded to peoples legs!
Dawn.