I don't think a dog should have to prove itself in the show ring before being bred from or be a qualified working dog but it should be assessed at a breed survey & have at least a grade two pass. This will mean they have been health checked judged against the standard in every way & graded against this & nothing else. My two top winners in the show ring were not my most breed standard correct dogs, the one who was best did very little winning because she hated it.
Now I'll pose another point from a breed which is definitely NOT mine I have a friend in a breed where they tend not to breed from their show bitches as breeding bitches are chosen on their ability to breed narurally which most of their show winners cannot. A large proportion of the births in the breed are by caesarian, because of the size of the dog's head. What would you do in this situation.All other breed specific health checks are done I must add.

I know which breed you're talking about and to be honest I couldn't have one. I like healthy breeds Anyone who breeds and shows can only really talk about their own breeds and experiences. I honestly think that if I had a breed that was so deformed it had that many health problems then I'd give up.

Debs

just a question how many show breeders actually breed from there show dogs?and what happens to all there pups that dont make the grade?do they go to pet homes?

i hope no-one takes offence from my question,im not implying any thing,is jus a question. thanksx

From my experience, the majority of them breed from their show bitches. Any puppies who don't go in the ring will be sold to pet homes yes. A reputable breeder/exhibitor will try and get as many puppies as possible into the ring (as long as they're good enough) as they'll be justly proud of what they've bred.

Debs

A great post and good point LS.

In all honesty, the 'pet' owners I know, yes, may have gone out to get a lab say...BUT as long as it looks like a lab they are happy, not too interested if it fits the standard perfectly. What they want is a 'general' but one that is healthy and has a brilliant temperament.
Yes, the breed standards whould be adhered to an extent. So...if you want a GSD, breed it with another GSD, but both should have good temperaments and have all health checks in place. If that is done...why would said GSD's end up looking like mongrels?
If crosses are done, then yes, people need to be careful, but again if all the checks are in place...whats the problem? The dog wouldn't be sold as a GSD would it, it would be sold as a X?

As for not breeding to make money...don't a lot of show people do exactly that? The dog does well in the ring then people want it's offspring, so a fortune can be charged at stud or for pups from the resulting litter.

People may do it but I don't agree with it. However, if you take the costs into campaigning a dog to it's championship (and beyond when you get the record chasers! ) I's not cheap.
I reckon that most trips to champ shows cost about £100, unless you are lucky and it is right on your doorstep so in reality I don't think they make much money although I do agree that there are show breeders who do produce many pups and are nothing more than puppy farmers but that still doesn't make it right in my book. They also allow their stud dogs to be over used which is detremental in any breed, the old popular sire syndrome and I believe that stud dog owners should accept responsibility for the numbers of dogs bred int he same way as bitch owners.
The only way to make money from breeding dogs, that I can see, is to have a large stock, breed many litters from each bitch and rehome when their time is 'up'. That is something I don't agree with whether the dogs are well bred or not.
Becky

Sorry but IMO I cannot see any justification for breeding mongrels, how on earth do you do specific health tests if you’ve no idea what makes up your supposedly perfect dog? How would you choose a sire, something that vaguely looks like it or maybe you’d go for the whatever is cute approach?

You have no problem with doodles – how many new breeds do we need – labradoodle, shnoodles, puggles, weimeroodles, the list is endless again I see no reason to start producing these so called new breeds apart from to make money.

One further point how many pet breeders already have homes lined up and waiting lists for the pups and should this also be part of breeding?

Just as a side note on studs and siring, in my ‘breed’ at least 2 dogs have sired around 5,000 pups each (obviously not for showing).

Becky, I think that we are all in agreement that puppy farming is wrong, it almost goes without saying.
I don't see why people shouldn't charge a decent price for pups though. I have never and will never breed BUT I am happy to pay over the odds if needs be for a happy, healthy dog from happy healthy stock, yes, I would even pay for a first generation cross, IF the parents could be seen and they had all their health checks done and were happy, well socialised dogs. IMO you are paying for the breeder to have happywell behaved and socilaised dogs that have had ALL their health checks in place. I am more than happy to pay for that. Breeding a litter properly is an incredibly time consuming business, why shouldn't that be recognised in the price? If all dogs were cheap or free they would be even more of a throw away commodity than they are now.
As I say, there isn't one person on here I'm sure that agrees with puppy farms.

The point here is that you would know and people do know the historys of dogs that are being crossed IF they are reputable breeders?
Why cross???
To get the best of two breeds thats why. Isn't that what has always been done?
I met a labradoodle the other day, it was friendly, outgoing, well behaved and well socialised and absolutely gorgeous.