Toilet training problems

Hi all
Ive had my 12 week old pup for just over a week now, before i got him he was apparently paper trained.
When i got him i decided to not let him use paper, so i got rid of it and began taking him outside, i was taking him out every half hour, after meals, first and last thing in the day, to start with but he never ever managed to do anything outside but as soon as we were indoors he would toilet all over the place.
He is even doing it in his crate and doesnt seem to mind it, and often toilets on his blankets.
He goes all night with no accidents which is great.

Because he toilets everywhere he has now banned from the rest of the house and sadly spends much of the time in the kitchen and in his crate untill he learns.
I still take him outside regularly maybe once an hour at the minute, its frezzing cold and we live in a very cold part of scotland so i feel i cant stand outside for ages with him, as he starts to shiver so we are out for maybe 10mins once an hour.

The other day i fed him and gave him loads to drink then i took him for a walk, we were out for 2hrs and he did nothing, untill we stepped in the front door he did his business on the floor.

Earlier he started to pee on the floor so i distracted him mid pee, rushed outside and stood for at least 20mins before i had to go back in as it was snowing and ice cold, he did nothing, soon as we were indoors he finished his pee!!

Nothing i do seems to work, its like he doesnt know he can toilet outside, and holds it till we are inside, so i scooped up a recent accident and placed it outside so next time he could get the scent and maybe trigger him to toilet out there, but he didnt.
Its driving me mad, as he has already messed so much on the carpets untill he was banned, but i feel sad that he cant have some time in the lounge with the family, as he cant be trusted not to pee, or worse!

Any advice/help would be appreciated

Hi Louise you may find this thread on a similar topic of interest..


http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=119591

You need to watch him like a hawk. As soon as he wakes up take him out when he has finished playing take him out I would be taking him out about every 30 mins at this age. Look for sings whining sniffing turning in circles. If you leave him in the kitchen and don't watch him he will just go best to have him with you all the time then you can catch him even if he starts to go pick him up and take him out. As he goes to the toilet say a word I use "go toilets" then give a treat.

As he was trained on paper I would be tempted to put a puppy pad down in the kitchen by the door at least if he is going on there he is not ruining your carpets if he goes on the pad as he is going say the comand then give the treat. Once he is consistent on there and you are more in tune with his cues you can progress on to outdoors using the comand you have practiced on the puppy pad using treats.

Remember he is a baby treat him a such. I swear having a puppy is worse than a human baby.

Actually after a couple days of him weeing everwhere i gave in and put paper down but he made no effort to go near it, when he did the toilet on the floor id take him to the paper and say "go potty" but he never managed it.
With him being young he doesnt cock his leg, he stands normal and pees, so spotting the signs of him needing is not easy, if i do catch him doing it he gets taken out straight away, but does nothing till hes back indoors.
Before i got him he had never been outside, so its like he didnt know he could toilet outdoors, i strongly believe he was hit by his previous owner for having accidents, as ive noticed when he does have an accident as i get up to go and clean it he turns to his side, cowers and ducks his head and shakes a bit.

We have tried all sorts to get him to pee outside or even on paper but in the time we have had him not once has he even did a little pee outside, and i know he must be holding till he is back inside.

Take it out on leash. Walk around. They can only walk and hold it so long. When it finally has to go, lavish praise on it.

You need to have it out of the crate, but in the same room as you so you can watch it. It may take extra work. Puppies lose much of their ability to accept new things at 12 weeks.

Much of housebreaking is not training the puppy, but making it easier for your puppy, you, and your carpet while its body to catches up to its instincts. At around 8 weeks when the puppy goes to its new home, the time from when it realizes it has to go, and when it can't wait any longer is a matter of seconds. Only time will fix that. You can hardly be expected to be attentive enough to avoid all accidents. There is no sense punishing the puppy for your inattention. It is not fair to punish you either, but you still have to clean it up if you didn't have the puppy outside in time.

Housebreaking starts before you get home with the new puppy. If you don't have a crate, buy one. I prefer the more enclosed, den like plastic ones. Skip the bedding. At first it gets wet, and later it can be chewed into choking hazards. A wire grid in the bottom will help keep the puppy up out of accidents at first. They are available with the crates, but expensive and hard to find. A piece of closely spaced wire closet shelving from a home supply place is cheaper. I am now using a plastic vegetable bin with plenty of holes drilled in the bottom. It helps block off part of the crate for the smaller puppy. If you already have a metal crate, covering it may help. Just make sure you use something the puppy can't pull in and chew. Dogs that start out in crates as little puppies, accept them very well. Never leave an unattended puppy loose in the house. If nobody can watch it, put it in the crate. I suggest letting the dog have its crate all its life. A crate needs to be just big enough for a dog to stretch out in.

Choose a command and spot you want it to use. The less accessible to strays, the less chance of serious disease. If it is a female, choosing a non grassy spot will avoid brown spots later. When you bring it home, take it to the spot and give it the command in a firm, but friendly voice. Keep repeating the command and let the puppy sniff around. Sometimes you need to walk it around to stimulate its body to eliminate. If it does anything, praise it. Really let it know what a good dog it is and how much you love it, and maybe a treat. Note, being out there not only means you can praise it, but it also keeps it from being snatched by a hawk. If it doesn't go, take it inside and give it a drink and any meals scheduled. A young puppy will need to go out immediately afterward. Go to the spot and follow the above routine. Praising it if it goes is extremely important. If it doesn't go, take it back inside and put it in its crate and try again soon. Do not let it loose in the house until it does go.

At first it is your responsibility to know and take the puppy out when it needs to go. It needs to go out the first thing in the morning, after eating, drinking, and sleeping. If it quits playing, and starts running around sniffing, it is looking for a place to go. Take it out quickly. You will just have to be what I call puppy broke until it is a little older. How successful you are depends on how attentive you are.

By the time most dogs are about 3 months old, they have figured out that if they go to the door and stand, you will let them out. The praise slowly shifts to going to the door. Some people hang a bell there for the dog to paw. If your dog doesn't figure this out, try praising it and putting it out if it even gets near the door. When you catch it in the act, give it a sharp ''Ah, ah, ah!'' and take it out. Clean up accidents promptly. I mostly keep the little puppies out of the carpeted rooms. Still I need the can of carpet foam sometimes. First blot up all the urine you can with a dry towel. Keep moving it and stepping on it until a fresh area stays dry. A couple big putty knives work well on bowel movements. Just slide one under it while holding it with the other. This gets it up with a minimum of pushing it down into the carpet. This works with even relatively soft ones, vomit, dirt from over turned house plants, or anything else from solids to thick liquids. Finish up with a good shot of carpet foam. Note, do not let the puppy lick up the carpet foam. Once the dog is reliably housebroken, your carpet may need a good steam cleaning.

Many people strongly strongly push cleaning up all evidence of past accidents. I am slower to suggest that. Dogs will return to the same spot if they can find it. When you see one sniffing the spot, that is your clue to run it out.

Labman I am pleased to see you are gradually learning from Dogsey members and not just copying and pasting all the same old stuff from your outdated manual .

However you continually refer to the fact you are raising puppies as 'service dogs' and the methods you use reflect this including the quote above .

I agree it is possible to keep a puppy in a crate most of the time as you suggests allowing it to soil in there on a wire grid without any bedding until it is old enough to control its bodily functions . By this time it may have developed behavioral problems like eating its own feces. While shut in a crate a puppy is also missing out on valuable socialization and not actually learning anything except to be bored and frustrated . Restricting a puppies access to water and reducing the number of meals as you suggest in some of your posts (and refuted by the experienced people here) undoubtedly cuts down on a puppy's output and therefore soiling in the crate making it more 'convenient' for people like you raising 'service dogs', but these methods can be detrimental to the health of a dog. I guess this doesn't matter so much to people like you raising 'service dogs' rather than pets and who never see the end result of their lack of care.

You claim to have had successes using the methods you describe but we only have your word for it and have no idea how these poor puppies turn out. You refuse to disclose to the names of the 'service agencies' whose advice you follow and which goes against all the major canine organisations including the Humane Society in your own country because they 'have to be protected' no doubt from being reported to the relevent organisations.

On Dogsey most of the members are interesting in producing happy healthy indispensable pets without behavioural problems not dispensable service dogs.

Hi Louise, I will also post some comments which may be of help
Louise where did you get your puppy from, you say he was paper trained I think he is confused and hasn't had any training. You have only had him for a week so it is early days yet.

If possible I would try to spent time getting him started on the right behaviour. This means staying with him in the kitchen, watching him like a hawk and taking him out as and when described above.

Once he has 'been' outside for you a couple of times and realises that relieving himself outside will be rewarded you can then start training him.

It is a good idea to teach your puppy to eliminate on command so that it learns to 'go' when requested and that doing so outside in your presence is rewarding (going inside brings no reward).

First the puppy needs to learn a 'prompt' word and what a word means, (I say 'beclean' ) .
To teach the puppy the meaning of the word it is important to say the word when the puppy is in the middle of relieving itself so that it associates the word with the action, then the moment it finishes going treat/praise. Timing is very important here, get it wrong and the puppy will be receiving praise for the wrong thing.


Once the puppy has learnt to associate the word with the action you can then use the word to prompt your puppy to eliminate . I use high value treats like chicken pieces to train this , after a while the treats should be given randomly then not at all but always give praise.

You also need to thouroughly clean any previously soiled areas with a none ammonia based cleaner or the scent of previous accidents will prompt your puppy to soil again in the same place (biological washing powder or special stain devil is good for this) . I would not acknowledge when your puppy has an accident, no word no eye contact or it may become afraid to relieve itself in your presence and you don't want to reward the unwanted behaviour with your attention

As your puppy is already 4 months old and has the ability to wait a little longer than a small puppy, if you are patient and consistent he should learn to become clean quite quickly . What Labman says 'puppies lose much of their ability to accept new things at 12 weeks' is nonsense. I also think it is very unlikely your puppy will be 'snatched be a hawk' , a flying pig would be as much of a threat.

Of all the sites I have ever been on, I have learned the least here. The only thing I have learned here is how many dog owners have no understanding of how little importance their own experience is and how resistant they are to anything outside the way they have always done it.

It is a real shame somebody with all my experience and training is continually bashed by those with much less.

If my opinions and advice were being so constantly queried by so many people I hope I would consider that I just might need to question the advice I was giving.

There I've said it after thinking it for a long time

Go awaaay...please, troll!

As for the OP, you have had your puppy for one week, which is nothing. Your pup will still be settling in and finding his feet. He is a baby, too young to have any real control of his bodily functions yet and is unsure of what you are asking of him. Have patience as you will have to prepare yourself for WEEKS/MONTHS more of him pooing and weeing everywhere! it doesn't happen overnight. Follow Mini's advice and all will come together in the next few months.

I also noticed that you said you were out on a walk for 2 hours with your pup. This is far, FAR too long for a baby pup to walk. He should be walking no more than 15 minutes a day at his very young age. It is crucial, particularly for a Lab or Lab mix, to regulate exercise very carefully in the first year.