Hi,

Thanx all.

Steph - I think you're right. Sometimes I think he's bored with doping things adn I'm not making them interesting enough for him adn sometimes I wonder if he really has forgotten what to do or what is expected of him. I definitely went overboard with him last year when training him and the more I pushed the more he did. Zane is definitely the more sensitive of the dogs and is generally a big wimp. When playing in the park with other dogs he would rcall. At times it took a few times of me calling him back for him to come but as you say, him being a puppy still and going through yet another kevin stage wouldn't have helped.

I stopped going ot training in Sewptember after what happened to Yiannis. I started again with the advanced classes just before Christmas. Zane always seemed to enjoy them before but now doesn't seem to be so interested.

I don't have big dreams for him as such but I know his potential because of how far he got before> I want him to do well but I don't want him to hate training or get bored with it. That's the reason I'm asking now what I could do to make it weasier for him. Or maybe he's reached a point where he's just not as reponsive anymore.

Yiannis is definitely the more responsive of the 2 GSDs - maybe down to his age (14 months). He picks things up very quickly, just as Zane used to. I agree that maybe Yiannis could go further than Zane but at the same time I don't want to overdo things with him as I did with Zane last year.

I think the main problem is I got so involved in pushing Zane that I didn't see what was happening. I used positive methods of training and only single word commands for the most par but there were a hell of a lot of them.

I don't expect either GSD to really come into their own until they're about 3 years old anyway but even then if it takes longer then so be it. The targets/deadlines/goals are for me really more than them.

Re breaking the stay. He's never been told off for breaking a stay. GSDs are known for it and to be fair to Zane, even though I know he's able to do these things, I'm still surprised that he could stay put for so long with me out of sight.

As far as recall is concerned I've never told him off or punished him for not coming back. I just make sure I always praise and/or reward when they do return to me. There was a time when in the park, off lead, Zane would go so far in front of me then come back to make sure I was still there. Ocasionally I'd recall him and reward him then send him off to play again so that he knew that just because he'd been called back, it didn't mean he was going to go back on lead and be taken home (made that mistake before with my last GSD, Jaikei).

For rewards, I use a combination fo liver cake treats, his "raggy" toy (an old hand towel rolled up and taped at the ends which he gets if he successfully completes a task) and loads of praise.

I'm also wondering if along with the effects of what happened to Yiannis (I'm convinced it affected the other dogs), as well as problems with my ex at that time that no doubt he'd have picked up on, with him not going to formal training and me not doing all that much with him at home, combined with him being unwell and losing loads of weight (put lots of weight back on and he's now a nice size and shape) may also have contributed. Or maybe I should try to stop analysing everything and deal with the situation as it is now!

Laura xx

my gut feeling is, zane is in far to high a class for his ability, if you want to compeat with him you really need to get the basics right before moving on,
is it a comp type club you go to?
does your trainer know he has an iffy recall outwith the club?

what age did you get zane at?

I think the problem going on here is zane has been put up as an advanced dog when he clearly was still needing basic stuff,
hes gone to far to fast and doesnt really know whats being asked of him

we see it in horses quite a lot, people blow there heads asking to much, often a break for them works {normaly a winter off} then being slowly and carefuly being brought back into work helps,

when you start training again, make sure he understands whats asked of him, in lots of diff situation, not just in the training club, eg when called he should come, at home, in the park, at training,

hun, you have zane tagged as an advanced dog, but the only thing thats working properly just now is his sit and possibly down from in front of you? he will not do it at a distance in the send away box?
hes also breaking his stays,
so if he were mine, I would lable him a begginer dog, take the pressure off yourself and him,
then work on the basic stuff he cant do, when he can do them, put them into diff areas, eg, when he can do sit stand and down in front of you, then ask him to do random possitions in the park, keep it fun, keep it light,

There always seems to be such a rush to have and advanced dog, when in reality these things take a long time, they dont come over night, the people on here with advanced dogs will tell you the sheer hours of work that goes into producing one, such as mish,.{ I dont have an advanced dog myself since loosing royce}

Think Shona has a point Laura, as you say these are your expections/goals, maybe they are not Zanes.
Like I say out of your dogs Zane is defo the more sensitive of the pack, not just with other dogs outside the pack but in his manner, maybe you being close you don't see this as much as an outsider does.

I think over analysing can be a common fault with all of us from time to time, remembering though that dogs pick up on body language, even when we say we are not frustrated/stressed/disappointed...whatever you want to call it....we can be and the dog will pick that up.
I think I agree with Shona (soz) he has gone too far too fast. As I say big dogs look big...thats where we have to remember they are young...Zane is just 2, and he has done alot (at your own admission) in those two short years.

Perhaps going to a lower class is the answer, you may feel he can do it, but Zane needs to realise he can too. Glad his weight has come on again

Having read all of these posts (phew!) I got to thinking you're not being consistent enough at home with your reinforcement of everything that Zane has learned in the past? Then when I saw the above, I knew I was right, when you say you occasionally call him back blah, blah, blah.

Day in day out,Zena is constantly being reminded of everything she has ever learned, be it just the once a day. When out, she constantly called back to me, sometimes for no reason whatsoever, but it's the consistency with which I do it, just to check up on her that she's always, always listening, and I fear, if ever I got blase about her recall (which is excellent to say the least!), then it would only be MY fault for not instilling it and keeping it going.

At home, the same thing. She is NEVER given anything in this house (except her meals!) without a sit, a wait, or a down, or a come, sit, wait in front of me, and sometimes, she gets just a hand signal and does it. I'm no trainer, but I cannot stress enough, probably because I've had horses all my life, that you have to do, do and do again no matter HOW much they know already, otherwise you get nowhere if you want a well behaved animal.

I don't do training classes now, I don't want the intensity of it for the moment, but I will go again, when I know for sure, that Zena is constantly reminded day in day out of all that she knows, and the only advice I can give you is to perhaps do the same thing, consistency is the key I feel sure of it! Good luck

.

Hi,

Thanx everyone. i think you're all right. It's much easier to see what's going on when an "outsider" puts their point of view across.

I readily admit that I pushed Zane too hard and most probably too quickly last year. As I work from home I was with the dogs all the time and I spent much of that time training Zane rather than doing any work!

Helena - I obviously didn't make myself clear. When in the park and Zane is off lead, at certain intervals I'd recal him, as you say, for no apparent reason. He wuld always come back but I didn't want him thinking that every time I called him back in the park it would just be to go home. i thought I'd have problems gettgin him back if I did thes; hence the recall during/throughout the time we spent in the park.

The trainers don't yet know that his recall has gone to pot. it's a recent thing and I've only just gone back to training. It hasn't happened every time. Much of the time when I recall him he comes straight away. Because he became so good at it, and it's something that was done each and every time we went to the park (and at home, in the field, at my Mom's etc) I thought it was just a one off occasion until he did it again; that's why now he's on a long lead. We still do the recall training whilst on the lead any chance we get - whether in the garden, in the field etc. Id on't see what difference it makes as he has to recall straight away regardless of where he is IMO.

It's not that he doesn't recall at all. It's that there have been a few occasions when he's approached other dogs and I've not been happy with it. I've called him back and he's ignored me. Now the owners of the other dogs have said it doesn't matter when I've fetched him and apologised profusely but it does matter to me. I don't want him to have poor/no doggy manners and I don't know that a dog he approaches is going to be friendly. Nor does the other owner know that Zane is just wanting to play. Maybe I panicked a little soon on this but it's because he wouldn't recall when he shoul dhave done that I now keep him on a harness (flaming expensive as it's such a big one) and long lead.

As far as him being advanced is concerned, at the moment he most definitely isn't. When I say advanced with regard to training I didn't mean in terms of competition work. I meant in terms of standard "pet" training, if that makes sense.

Because I didn't like what the trainer of the intermediate group was doing with one of the dogs in his class (using "old" CM methods) Zane jumped from the puppy class to the advanced class. it wasn't a straight jump though - I did loads of work with him at home to get him up to the standard where he would do what was asked of him in the advanced class.

Quite often I go back to basics as such with im by reinforcing sit, stay, down etc. I don't usually force him to stay put with me out of the room for any length of time but he had worked up to 3 minutes. This isn't essential for me and I think for tasks like this I'll leave them for now. They can always come later so long as he stays for a minute or so, which he is doing.

The fact that I taught him "down" saved his life IMO. He managed to get out of the front of the house once, inthe dark. I live on quite a busy road and he was heading for the road. It's the only time I've raised my voice like that to any dog but I almost screeched at him to go down. He did so straight away on the tarmac just before he got to the road. Now whether that was because he'd bee taught (which I'd like to think was the case) or whether he heard the chagein tone of voice etc I don't know. But the point is he did it. Hadhe not done it, he'd have quite possibly been run over (not least because he was much darker back then and would have been harder to see inthe dark!)

I have no problem starting from scratch with him re training. The basics such as sit, stay, wait, down are things I do every day with him anyway at home (and with Yiannis too. Ellie and Buddy are a different kettle of fish altogether) and these are second nature to him. He's doing these allthe time so i suppose he doens't get the chance to forget as such.

Shona - What is DC? I had him at 6/7 weeks old, back in February 2008.

So with going back to training, do I assume Zane knows nothing and he's never done anything at all? It would be easier to do this then absolutely everything is done rather than just picking bits I think he's not responding too.

Also, in time, do you think it's worth redoing the KCGC tests? He's already done them but if he's not at that standard now maybe he should do them again after being retrained. Or maybe it's not relevant if he'a already done it. Would he be allowed to redo it?

From what everyone has said (and I agree with everyone), I think I'll start back in the puppy class with Zane and work him up again from there. If he can do what I'm asking then fine. If there's something he doesn't do then I'll just do the extra work with him at home etc.

I'd like him to be advanced in terms of being a well behaved pet. Competition/show work can always come later andI think is way above even the level he got to last year when he was at his best (or so I thought).

What makes it harder is that Buddy is a couple of months younger than Zane, does ringcraft etc and now he's showing a little bit of character seems to be better trained/behaved than Zane, even though a lot more work
has gone into Zane. As you said Steph, his age, size and breed are probably a lot to do with it. Zane is the biggest dog I have and the oldest. but it's clear that even wit a lot of work goin ginto him, it makes no difference when compared to other/smaller breeds.

Laura xx

Hi,

I forgot to add (and it wouldn't let me edit the post) that the one thing I think is most important - I want Zane to be happy with everything he does.

At the end of the day so long as he can sit, stand, stay, wait, recall, retrieve and walk to heel both on and off lead on command then I think he'll be a well behaved pet. I didn't have him as a competition/show dog but if he's good enough I'd like him to get that far.

If he gets absolutely nowhere in terms of competitions, he's still my big wimpy Zane and that will never change!

Laura xx

Hi Laura, DC is distance control, I asked about this as you had said that he wouldnt down in the send away box,

this is something your going to have to work on if you want nice clean downs or any position from a distance,

can I ask again how your trainers set up the send away box?

I wouldnt bother doing the KCGS again to be honest,

if you feel you would like to do some obed later with him, I would find a good competition type training club in your area then get him into the pre-beginners class and start him from there,
Im sure someone on here will know of a decent club in the area.

Hi,

Thanx Shona. His distance control was never a problem until recently. The send away box was set up with littel cones, usually in the middle fo the hall (or field if we're outside in the summer). I did find it hard to begin with last year to get him to understand NOT to go past the last 2 cones adn set one up in my back garden to practice with. The only difference is that I put an extra cone (although I used plant pots, not cones_ just after the last 2 right in the middle. This seemed to help him.

Until recently, I'd send Zane to the box, he'd get there, turn round and lie down; which is what he was trained to do. but now he'll go to the box and either just stand there facing away from me or turn round and look at me sometimes. He won't go down even on command if he's in the box. Once out of the box, he will do, even if he's at the same distance away from me. It's this I don't understand. If he's do it at a distance anyway, why not now in the box when he was shown how to do it and I never deviated from it?

Whilst doing recall also back in the summer Zane would sit. I'd leave him and walk away untilt he trainer told me to stop. I'd call him to me and tell him to go down in between where he started and where I was. This took a while to do as he'd be running full pelt to get to me but he did it perfectly eventually.

So sometimes he won'tdo it but most of the time he will.To e, that means there isn't enough control over him. hat I'm having trouble gettingtogrips with is that I used to have this level of control all the time, even through his kevin stages.

I'll definitely think about going to a different club once Zane has the basics under his belt again.

Laura xx

Sounds like he might be conused to me, start again from square one and reinforce ev