younger dog not allowing older dog a look in...help (long)

I have posted before about Zeitas bossiness but its now getting worse. I mentioned it also to our trainer who has told us to remove her from the room everytime she growls at Zak and ignore her. We have been putting her outside as we have no doors downstairs to put her behind. However this doesn't appear to be working.

Last night she was sleeping on our bed and Zak came in as they have access upstairs at night time only and she flew at him, this is the first time he has ever retaliated so we had to seperate a fight at 4.30am no body hurt though. She is now almost 18months so at that age I know. She growls or makes noise and sometime runs at him if he is coming into the living room or goes near the table (none of them is ever fed from the table and Zeita doesn't even go near the table when we are eating never has done) but she sees it as a place Zak should not be allowed near. They eat together in the Kitchen with no probs, we walk the seperately as she can walk further than him and faster also he is fear aggressive and she is friendly so it doesn't help her socialisation to walk together now. She wont let him have any toys and runs to tug it off him if he gets one, at which he offers little resistance so she wins everytime (he is a softy). So what next? I have shouted at her, shut her out, ignored her......so what do I try next?

other than that she is brilliant ie loving, cuddly, great with the kids my concern is that this escalates into one of them getting hurt she is 28kg and Zak is 47kg so she would not stand a chance should he decide to properly retaliate. I also worry incase she turns this onto people, is this likely?

I really don't know what to do Ash is fast losing patience and I have a feeling of what he is thinking but dont want to admitt thats what he's thinking. She goes training once a week and is doing well.

help.............................. x

Mel x

Firstly, I'm pretty sure that she won't do it to people....Hoki can be as bossy as this if allowed, but she has never tried it with people (nor strange dogs, just those that she has lived with).

How has Zeita been with him since he stood up to her - this may be what she needs and may have done some good, particularly if he is more powerful than her.

How is her general obedience - does she respond to commands well? If not, I would do a lot more work with her on that as without obeying you on other things, imo you stand little chance of getting her to do as you say over this issue.

Timing is also critical in terms of stopping her - to be effective you need to catch her the second she thinks about going for him...its so much easier to get her attention this stage and make her understand what you want (and then praise her for doing something else, such as a sit or a down0. If she has already gone for him, the chances are that she will be too 'pysched up' to understand what you want or why she has been put outside.

That makes it sound like you'll constantly be on the edge of your seat watching - well for a little while you will be, but once she starts understanding the message, you should find it gets easier and that she will do it less and less.

As for toys, make her lie down and stay while you have a bit of a play with Zak, then praise her and have a play with her.

I think it sounds like you could do with some help from someone seeing the situation first hand...would your trainer be willing to do a home visit to help you out?

thanks Hali that makes sense, her general obedience is very good. It would be great to let our trainer come and see it first hand however Zak would not allow a stranger in the house and has to be kept out of the room, so she wouldn't see the true story . I will try t he distraction route.

We are also going to stop her/them from sleeping upstairs on our bed in the hope that she will realise she is not above him as its more her that sleeps on our bed and Zak on the floor, mainly due to his size but she won't see it like that will she?

Also we always give Zak his food first or a treat first then she gets hers immediately after so a few seconds delay (is this right?)

I think you've gotten really good advice from Hali, especially about catching her the second she thinks about going for Zak, before it escalates. And praising her when she leaves him and focuses instead on you. Cox can be fiery with other males, but if I catch him before he starts growling and re-focus his attention all is well.

If she does go for him, I think you do need to let her know that that is not acceptable, by correcting her in a way she understands. You as the leader need to re-enforce that fighting between pack members is not allowed.

You could keep her on a houseline, so that you can give it a tug to take her focus off him and onto you from a distance if she won't focus on you with just a verbal command. Also if one is on a line if a fight does erupt, then you stand a better chance of separating them without getting bitten by mistake.

I don't think she will start being like this with people.

Can you put her on a house line for a bit? That would let you effectively stop her doing the bossy-madam bit before it starts.

You can then control where she goes (as in near the table etc) a bit more effectively.

Although you don't have doors, do you have doorways? Could you use babygates/dog gates to section off the kitchen etc? We use a 4ft gate in the kitchen doorway (no door) and a normal babygate in the hallway to restrict upstairs access (again, no door).

I would stop the dogs getting on the bed (not because I disagree with it) but so that there is no trigger for her to start being this way.

Max (our eldest) always gives Murphy the toys. As soon as Murphy tries to take them, Max will just let go of it and walk off. I figure it's cos Max doesn't want to get into a tuggy-match, or get squashed by Murphy.

Ah, that could be a problem re a trainer, right enough!

If her obedience is good, I do think you will get there. I should've thought about the importance of timing when you first raised this, but that's the difficulty with forums- it takes so long to type a response + its easy to forget bits!

With Hoki I found that if she had already fixed her stare on Stumpy or started moving towards her, I might as well not be there. But, if I saw the 'look' (and I'm sure you'll recognise it too) and acted immediately, she would snap out of it. I won't pretend that they don't still have the odd 'argy-bargy' but it is getting less and less frequent (touch wood!), partly because they don't try it as much and partly because both OH & I are better at recognising the signs and stopping it before it gets started.

Its probably not a bad thing to stop her sleeping on the bed if he isn't allowed to, but I have mixed feelings about the feeding first bit...I'm sure in some cases it can help, but I've never found it necessary with mine. As I make them do something for food/treats anyway, I think that this possibly reduces the emphasis on heirachy between them - they are more focused on what they need to do for me to get their treat,even if this means waiting until the other one has done their trick/got their reward.

Good luck, I hope you get it sorted, I know how fraught it can make life (and my two are only half the size of your two )

we have been recommended to use the long line so will try that.

RE the gates we have used dog gates in the past and have a normal baby gate accross the stairs, however the dog gate we used was across the kitchen / utility which was ideal as we put her in there when we were out and Zak went in the porch. But one day I came back and she was in the kitchen and the gate still closed so she had jumped it and its one of the tall ones too, so its scares me that if she tried it again she could hurt herself so we took it down....may be it would be ok to use while I am in the house though will haver a think on that lol

all has been quiet this morning may be last night did help.....!!!

You have already had plenty of really excellent advice so I can only really give my own experiences.

Flame can be a real bossy madam with the other house dogs (my other three) and she seems to think it is her right to be close to her people and the other three should stay out of the room! I found that removing her when she had a go at one of the others (just gently taking her collar, no words, and putting her behind the babygate in the kitchen) and leaving her to think about her behaviour for around 5-10 mins while I made a fuss of the others worked well. It took a little while, but she soon learned that her bad behaviour meant the other dogs got our attention and she got none.

How long have you tried this method for? You have to be really really consistent with it and remove her every single time she has a go at Zak.

If you have tried this for a while and it still isn't having the desired effect then I would definitely try having her on a house line, so you can correct her bad behaviour before it escalates. She really needs to know you are unhappy with her.

I think in the last thread about her behaviour, I suggested she didn't sleep on the bed - not because I disagree with it either, but just because she probably feels as though she has elevated status when she is up there and Zak is on the floor.

Regarding feeding, I know some believe that the more dominant dog should be fed first etc, but I am not a firm believer in this and often feed my dogs in any random order with no problems.

Have you spoken to Elaine about coming out to the house? Would Zak be okay if he were put away when she initially came in, and then introduce him once she is in and sat down? Elaine, as you know, is GSD experienced and so I am sure wouldn't be bothered by him.

Good luck with it.

Are you worried your OH might want to rehome Zeita?

I also meant to say that if Zak isn't overly bothered by her and he will retaliate, without it escalating into an all out battle, then I would be tempted to let them settle it between them.

You could train her in the house, using positive methods.
If you are training her to sit on her blanket, or to down stay while you eat, she won`t be involved in guarding you from the other dog`s attentions. You are replacing an undesired behaviour with a desired one. I`m not sure dogs understand Time Out, but if your dog knows it is doing the `right thing` and will be rewarded by sitting on her blanket, she will be more settled with the other dog anyway.
I`d separate them at night for the time being.