They didnt know they were getting the ball so it wasnt witheld.

What would you have given them if they didnt come back? A shock?! What point are you making?

AP - you're failing miserably - wave the white flag already before you dig yourself in any deeper.

Working on someone elses theory and then preaching it doesnt make it right or true?

I'm not religious and sat through a whole 7 years of primary school being preached to about God - didnt change my view one bit...so you continuing to preach about +R being as stressful of -R is a load of rubbish and there is only you who believes it on this forum - is that simple enough or does everyone have to revert back to caveman speech for you to understand it?

My dogs have never shown any signs of stress when being taught tricks and basics with treats and toys - they have only shown eagarness

http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=136148

My 6 month old in training - nothing but a happy tail and eager to learn and when he gets something wrong he gets a "good try" and it maybe wrong but he gets a chin scratch then I start again and only reward what I want - I have just trained him to roll over and until I get what I want he doesnt get a treat - no stress it's cognitions in the brain trying to work out what I want and then the word is associated with it - the whole while he is happy and tail is wagging and his eyes are full of "Whats next mummy?" Your dogs and the other videos you have shown us are full of "Please dont zap me" looks.

Wave the flag and admit that please understand that we, no matter how long this thread goes on for, will never undertsand or revert to your point of view!

... i dont think its thread contributors he is trying to convince.

Nope, AP is hoping to catch the passing owner of a troublesome adolescent or rescue dog who in their desperation googles "ecollar". He is looking increasingly ridiculous and implausible so well done Dogsey for scuppering his sales pitch.

yip altho there is a fair amount of private messaging going on to

He hasnt responded but has been PM'ing, find that strange

perhaps PM'ing the Intro ppl with problems?

God I hope not

But that's why he is here. I asked about 40 pages ago why Dogsey is allowing AP to publicise such methods and potentially recruit clients here. Ho hum.........

Let's assume not, as spamming people by PM is usually against the terms of service on most forums.

At least if someone is lost as to what to do next and sees this online they will take a second thought at any E-collar recomendations, hopefully.