Sorry Inca, my writing skills are somewhat lacking at the best of times

Lemme see, the main bits :

Minihaha is right in that usually with multiple dogs it tends to be the same one which starts up the barking and the rest follow, so working with that one can often ease the issue for the rest.

To summarise another bit, dogs bark for a reason, and it may not be wise to stop it altogether cos a time you need them bark wont happen [ like the stolen car incident ]


This bit I`ll leave as it is :
In my previous post, I wasnt trying to bash the whole method, just trying to explain how it was intended to be used and how it is so often misused, and that other sounds can work just as well.

And this bit :
What should be remembered with all programs like that is editing can make it look like miracles have happened when they certainly have not, and some of the `followups` show dogs no better than they were at the start even with the best editing efforts in the world.


And this bit :
Copying anything from such a show is definately at ones own risk, and should be thought through and / or talked through with others first, but as we all know I`m sure, there are people out there who take things off the telly as gospel and just go ahead without questioning it in their own mind, [ and usually getting it wrong anyway ], and end up in a right mess.
By that I mean the sort who no one would think should have a dog, who go filling bottles, getting airhorns, chokers [ if they watch that wally Cesar Milan ], we all know the sort
Anyone experienced knows their own dog/s, knows their likely reactions to things, and know not to do something again if it causes distress / anxiety etc.


Hope thats a bit better and the original post is there for context if needed. Sorry for the waffling before, I was trying to cover as many angles as possible.
I knew what I meant

That was absolutely my intent in my references to the program, I hope I have not given any other impression especially to Inca but if I have I apologise unreservedly !

We have used a bottle with pennies in it with Max.

He went through a stage of whining at the door when we eating/ironing/doing a non-dog activity and usually (i.e. when he barks) a command of "Quiet!" is enought to stop him.

The whining went on and on, so we filled a little bottle with a few pennies and when he whined we gave it one shake and said "Quiet!". He was shocked enought to stop whining.

We probably did it for about a week and eventually, whenever he whined I would pick the bottle up and he would stop! I ended up not even having to shake it at him, just show him it.
He's not scared of the bottle though, he has sniffed and licked it...

Now, I've actually realised that he is a very "vocal" dog, and will "talk" to me (whine and make noises at me) even when I am stood next to him, or he is sat with us. However, he doesn't sit and whine whilst we are eating anymore etc (this is now partially as he is fed at the same time we eat)

I know that the "bottle" thing won't work for every situation and every dog, and I guess we started it earlier enough with Max for it to have an effect.

HTH

Shelley
x

Who's throwing bottles at anything? And even if that was the case, though I have to be honest, you're bringing a simple tried and tested method so wildly out of context that it's barely recognisable, if someone threw a bottle at me for any reason, it would, without any doubt, get my attention and so the method would have been successful. However, that's not the point as I'm not a dog, and nor is a dog a human (though the more I read some forums, the more I believe many think they are).

Being absolutely and brutally honest, I PMd Inca last night as I feel for people in her position at times. There is an individual who has an issue which only she can really know the full context of, her own dogs, and the stresses and strains that it causes. She sees a safe and humane technique on TV and thinks it may just work for her issue. She asks on a dog forum and within a couple of posts gets a worst case scenario. Now I'm sure that post was made as a "it can happen" type post and made in good faith but it can make any owner feel as though they're being cruel before they've even begun. I think it grossly unfair, I really do. Not only unfair but also very destructive, as , as seems to be the case (based on first signals) it might just be the one thing that the dog responds to.

Worst cases always stick in our heads far more than best cases and so it's always so easy to recall them when something slightly related comes along. Let me assure you, if shaking a bottle to get a dog's attention is on the "hit list" of too dodgy to try then I'm one of the worst dog owners you could image. I do far more than shake a bottle, as mentioned earlier, deliberately exposing my dog to loud sounds each and every day. However, the recent posted pics of Blondi during a very typical training session should show you that she loves every second of it, and has made remarkably fast progress because she loves the new challenges so much.

When I read posts such as those made in response to this thread I am reminded of Blondi so much and her cushion destroying fixation. Reading similar threads here, the common solution seems to be to remove the cushions. That to me is not solving the issue. That is avoiding the issue. A complete different ending. Rest assured, I tried leaving toys around, I tried bitter-apple spray, I tried so many different things. Eventually I sat and thought about how I used to be with my "blue print" dog, Busta the GSDxRottie.

From then on, whenever I returned and she had torn into another cushion, I pointed at the cushion and in a very displeased manner gave a very firm "NO". It took two to three days to solve the issue using that really quite unpoplar method of punishing after that fact. (Apparently we have to catch our dogs in the act to reprimand them for it.) I swear to you that she shows absolutely no interest in the cushions whatsoever now. No fright, no desire, just complete disinterest.

My Grandad is another shining example. He's had dogs all his life and if you quoted any modern day behaviourist or trainer's name he would look at you with a dumb expression. Yet, all through my growing life, I have never once seen him with a poorly behaved or unhappy dog. Quite the opposite; I envy the relationship he has with his dogs. I believe that it's precisely because he's not so wrapped up in how wrong or right what he does is, and has the now rather old and out of date belief that a dog is a dog with extremely basic needs, not a surrogate child, that he can just get on and enjoy the relationship that he has with his dogs. You just can't beat that in my book. He is certainly my greatest inspiration for the way we should live with our dogs, and far more so than any modern day trainer or behaviourist will ever be.

Apparently, the softer our methods, the better for all. So why are antisocial dog cases constantly on the increase? Why are dogs in rescue centres at an all time high and seem to be showing no sigh of decreasing.

Whatever happened to "as fit as a butcher's dog", etc. Now the butcher would be accused of Lord knows what. Something wrong with this or that sausage, this or that bone isn't right, and might just cause this or that syndrome. Going by today's extreme tilt to almost mothering our dogs, it's a wonder that dogs twenty, thirty, forty. etc years ago were not all untrained killers!

My apologies for rambling and perhaps upsetting one or two people but this issue has boiled up since last night. For revenge, you can always call me cruel, I won't mind.

For reference incidentally, here is a link to Robs comments towards comments made about the Dog Borstal programme and methods used throughout. http://www.[Automatic System Edit: URL].org.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=101451

OK Apparently not then as Dogsey seems to object to the link.

Noooo, not out of context at all.
The topic header refers to Dog Borstal and the throwing method is how they demonstrate it and is how the Staffie owners mentioned were taught by one of the `trainers` on the program. Everything they were taught was about negative aversion and his problems just kept getting worse.

I simply tried to explain the two ends of the scale - correct use in its intended original form, and incorrect use as shown on the program.



Sadly in the format shown, it is far from safe when used on many dogs, hence multiple reports of people trying it after seeing it then being bitten.

Not a `made up` worst case, but cases which actually happened. When Brierley is back on line, if she see`s this, she can confirm she got at least one such call from a bitten owner immediately after because of the bottle technique they copied from program.

For my part, I tried to be balanced and constructive, in explaining the method itself.

Every time there are programs like that one, within days there are dogs on behaviourists couches [ so to speak ] for problems caused or exacerbated by use of methods shown by people who do *not* understand their own dogs.
They should have gone to a behaviourist or trainer in the first place, not just tried anything they see on the telly.

There is a huge difference between people like that and the people who do know their dogs and do continually explore ways to work with them.
If I did not make it clear before, I would consider Inca is the latter, not the former.

My concern is for the dogs of owners either too lazy to do any actual training with their dogs OR who are inexperienced owners naive enough to think if its on the box it must be right.

People who do know their dogs and see something they consider may be ok to try and would know very quickly if it was not suitable for their dogs [ like Inca ], are not the ones I would be worried about.

Anyone lurking who maybe is a bit shy of asking for help with a similar problem or is perhaps new to dog ownership will, I hope, benefit from seeing the method discussed if they are seeking education on the rights as well as the wrongs of a method especially something off the telly which is not explained on there and for which editing ensures an incomplete picture.

now lets all put it in order.......no one has to agree and perhaps its good sometimes that we don't

I have had this situation for a while now and thought it was worth a try when all else had failed it got to the point where I dreaded the door knocking it seems to be working FOR ME ..............and i still encourage new members to post for advice as its up to them if they want to listen or not

and just add no offence was taken i have around almost from the start here and I think members know me to well

This must be the point of confusion then as I never saw a bottle be thrown at anything or at anyone. Did I miss something? I've just tried to remember if I left the room as it was on, but I don't recall doing so. Anyone?

i didn't see it all I was cooking dinner .................

Can't remember as I watched the program about a year ago, think the current ones are repeats.
The point is no one on here that has used the technique has advocated throwing the bottle at the dog. Just re read the posts and anyone that has used it has said they rattled or gave it a shake or a tinkle, and after a while they could just show the bottle and eventually were able to stop using it as it became unnecessary.

I'm relieved to hear that if I have amnesia then so too does my partner as she doesn't recall anyone throwing a bottle either and she watched it with me.

So, I'm more than a little confused now...