urm could be LOL ..............give it a go

hi inca, if u feel it is not scaring them, and only distracting them from what they are barking at, then when they look at you, i would give them a quiet cue and reward with a treat.

Alternatively, if you teach them how to bark on command, you could then teach them how to be quiet on command and gradually increase distractions

thanks Jen ..all info greatly recieved

Yus, 'twas

Definately the dog :smt005

THis one was under one of the Dog Borstal bunch. Their method is to alarm the dog with the bottle which is totally wrong.After the first episode was iared, behaviourists got an influx of calls from people saying they watched it, tried it, and oops their dogs bit them.

In using it incorrectly, [ as in the Staffies case ], where the dog not only see`s the bottle but has it thrown toward them, [ as demonstrated frequently on the program ], where a dog is fearful because of it, it creates a bigger reaction toward the trigger to the behaviour the bottle is being used for.

For example, this lads dog aggression :

See a dog, react toward the dog, bottle is used in a way the reactive dogs see`s as a punishment, dog blames the other dog and becomes even more reactive and so it escalates.

This is common whatever the trigger, as the negative association increases the original trigger from something relatively minor [ like barking when someone knocks at the door ] and can increase to something major [ like whoever is at the door becoming a target because them being there corresponds to the fear / fright / negativity of the bottle/punishment ].

So, if sound is used as a distraction, it should be something which is not negative by the dogs perception, but simply an attention getter which the dog wants to investigate out of interest, not out of shock or uncomfortable suprise.

It could be the handler making a clicking sound from the mouth, making keys chink, opening a container the dogs knows its treats are in, anything positive which causes a momentary distraction, at which, with good timing, the positive aspect is increased by the dog being asked to do something reliable [ even just a `sit` for instance ], which then elicits praise.

The reason I suggest asking for something reliable in the moment of quiet, [ if thats a `sit` for instance ], rather than rewarding straight away, is that if the timing is not perfect the dog can think the reward was for the barking itself, not for stopping it. Distracting then immediately redirecting, [ with the reliable action ], helps break the habit without risking rewarding it.


Relating specifically to dogs barking at the door, something was suggested to me a while back which is so simple I had never thought of it, [ I wish it was me came up with it ], and that is to teach a sit or a down with an additional cue geared up to the dog seeing people especially. The suggestion was to use the word `hello` as the cue for the sit or down. As we know, any word can be used as a cue for an action, so long as we use it consistantly.

My Gremlin for example, has two cues for sit, one which is general [ `sit` funnily enough ] and the other is for specific places - the extra cue being `kerb` which means sitting at the pavement before crossing the road on a releasing `walk on` cue.

Using two cues for the same action is not confusing to a dog when one is general and the other has a specific association.
So, using`hello` for a sit or down when someone is at the door [ with the usual rewards of praise etc while the dog is learning the cue, the same as any other ], can put a positive but calming slant on things for the dog. Aiding the reinforcement of it is that `hello` is such a common word, [ hence using it as a new cue ], when greeting people at the door, and them saying it back, helps reinforce the sit or down to give guests time to get in and take coats off rather than be pounced on in the doorway / hallway by the dog/s.

It can take some dogs a little while to learn of course, especially if a behaviour is intrenched, but by working through it consistantly, not trying to rush it, not putting pressure on the dog by having people knock at the door to test it out before the dog is confident and reliable with the additional cue, and not giving up before the dog has had time to take in the information properly, it can work very well indeed.

[ I so wish I`d thought of it, so simple but so potentially effective !!!! ].

To put right what is so wrong on the Borstal method as shown with the rattle bottle, the dog should never see the source of the sound, the sound should never elicit a fearful or worried reaction, and the sound should not be made more than once for each instance. I am not pro this method however I do understand its original concept and application which is why I know how misused it is on the programme and by one of the trainers on the Staffie whose owners binned the bottle immediately once I talked through things with them.

Incidentally, when he is excited [ he luuuuurrrvvveeesss his agility ], he does bark initially, purely from excitement as he wants to get going, [ he also thinks he is a collie in a Staffie body bless him ], and instead of his handler getting frustrated and telling him to stop barking using loud / harsh / frantic tones, [ which just gets many dogs barking all the more ], I told her to whisper very quietly. It did not take long for him to realise he could hear `something` and he stopped barking so he could listen properly instead.

I hope some of the above may be helpful in explaining the whys and wherefores of the bottle, [ the method originated as a tin with coins incidentally ], in its intended use, and how it is misused [ mostly unfortunately ], and how other sounds in conjunction with redirection and timing can mean the getting a desired behaviour without it involving apprehension, worry, or other negative associations which can cause a potential backfire.

I don't have access to this programme on my TV so can't comment, but as a generally comment I would say although noise distraction/aversion is very useful when used in some situations it is not a blanket remedy and I am horrified at the thought of lots of people rushing off and trying this method when it may not be appropriate.

When dogs bark they are after all doing what they are supposed to do, alerting us to strangers and I would not want a dog who was 'scared' into never barking, I prefer a dog who will bark a couple of times then stop when asked to do so .


I teach my dogs/the present dog the 'quiet' ,I did this by waiting until she barked then the second she stopped saying 'quiet' and giving her a treat...timing is very important. Once a dog has been taught this method it can be used when people come to the door/if you have a dog like mine who likes to sit in the window and bark at passers by/when you stay in a strange house .

Eventually my present dog learnt to bark twice then stopped automatically . I also taught her to 'say ' and bark on demand which can be useful when you live and walk alone.

With respect, it should be remembered that Inca has four of the critters to deal with, all at the same time. Any one of us can tell her what we did with our dog, but we also need to remember that dealing with four barking dogs is completely different to dealing with one dog.

If she sat waiting for all four dogs to stop before saying "quiet" then the chances are that the person at the door would be long since gone anyway.

I remember reading a few forum posts at another dog forum from Dog Borstal trainer Rob, who I have seen use the sound aversion technique several times. To a large part I really find myself agreeing with his feeling that many of us have actually gone the same way with our dogs as we have with our children -- letting them get away with blue murder and then wondering why they act like rebels.

Yes, dogs do bark but then they also naturally toilet wherever they want to too. Where are you prepared to draw the line?

Dogs hear different sounds each and every day of their lives -- in fact I for one ensure mine does by switching between urban and field walking every day so that she can hear the sound of car horns, passing high-speed trains, lorry doors slamming, car alarms, etc.

You can't, and I believe shouldn't try to protect your dog from everything. Returning to the bottle technique in particular, it doesn't stop the dogs from barking at all. The dogs bark, alert is made to the owner, job done. The bottle is then used to get their attention as they are all joining in song together, their attention is diverted, and the request given to the dog.

I confess that I'm really struggling to see any negatives here at all. As I said at the start, pick any technique you like and for one particular dog somewhere it may well be the wrong one -- but equally, it may also be that breakthrough one that the dog(s) respond to. Reading past posts from Inca, she clearly loves her dogs very much and I believe should be trusted to recognise when her dogs don't like something and when it's achieving a positive effect. After all, what responsible dog owner can't tell when their dog is in distress?

To lambast something and give worst case scenarios which may only be applicable to 1% of the dog population seems extremely unfair on the owner who is looking for something that their particular dog(s) respond to.

When there is no cruelty involved, then to not at least try a technique seems ludicrous to me.

Hi GSDLover I have also used this method in a kennel situation with 24 dogs, there is nearly always one 'ringleader' and you have to single out that dog and teach it 'quiet' individually. If a kennel dog starts barking it often turns to howling and everyone joins in
All the dogs came into the house in rotation and received daily individual training, there were four of us training them ..

Well I tried the technique and it worked for us, we dont use it anymore because we do not need to. Zuki is far from scared of us and has not got an agressive bone in her body, so it definately did not cause any of the things mentioned for us.

i can understand that not all things work
but sorry to all those who doublt this idea its working well here i actualy stood at the front door this morning for 5 mins talking and the girls didn't bark as when the door knocked i rattled the bottle and they stopped straight away i gave them a treat and answerd the door ...IN FACT I HAVE TO SAY IT WAS A REAL PLEASURE TO GET TO THE DOOR BEFORE PEOPLE HAVE RUN OFF

Bonnie is my ring leader here she likes to alert me at every opportunity which is great BUT then continues even when she is told to be quiet I do understand that with singled out training other methods are good but i has not yet found one , when it gets to the point that the oH is saying she may have go ...I WILL DO ANYTHING TO STOP HER BARKING


SORRY DOUBTERS ITS WORKING SO FAR