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mishflynn
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Location: Cardiff, UK
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06-07-2011, 06:00 AM
Originally Posted by Krusewalker View Post
sorry claire i didnt see your post earlier.
he was asked to pay vet bills.
however, the club even cocked that up as they had never bothered to take his address, so they could not post my mum's vet bill.

Surely it was done to your MOTHER to get the mans number , not the club???? The man hadnt even , at that point GONE to the club?
(the vet, by the way, was quite shocked at how the club went about this whole thing).
predictably he never answered their phone calls.
however, they had his relatives number so rang her.

However, they did not do any of this until 1 week after my mum called and repeatedly asked them to do so.

Not suprised, theyve finally done HER job , after a week of harressment! HER dog HER responsibility
For 1 whole week the husband of her committee contact kept teling my mum she couldnt come to the phone due to health problems (fair enough) but instead of referring her to another committe member spoke on behalf of the club and was unhelpful saying they will have a committe meeting in a few weeks and they "might" decide to pass on my mothers bill!

Jeez how much was this bill????? was only a few puncture wounds wasnt it?
This whole week he gave my mum the impression he was connrected to the club, turns out he wasnt.

Probaley freaked out by being phoned for a week by your mother!
After 2 weeks of my mum having to ring them all the time (not one club person rang her or even rang to ask about her dog) she finally had a chepque thru the post from the owner.

idnt really need to ring her did they? not with her on the phone the whole time?

earlier on, he had written a letter explaining he got the dog from a resuce because he was lonely and he turned to the club when he realised he had a problem and he never got a dog so it could maul another dog, he was very shocked and sorry. He "got rid of the dog".

Oh Good!!!! Another dog helped. Hope you & your mother are proud of yourselfs

I totally agree with you that the man came to them for help.
I feel strongly that the club have let him down as bad as my mother.

I dont think so, they never had chance to try
Their was no fight by the way, just an adult dog severely attacking the first puppy it saw.

ONCE the collar had broken. The dog had managed not to attack anything else whilst restrained

My dog behaviour head also tells me that this was a severely dog aggressive dog so shouldnt have been mixed with other dogs, so when the trainers saw him reacting aggressively toward the pups when the owner intruded into their class, they should have surmised the puppies reacting to him defensively would have tipped his over-aroused state over the edge and he would have focussed all this aggression on the doorway awaiting the pups to come out.
I assess this correct also because the 10 minutes between him being thrown out the hall and the pups leaving he ignored the adult dogs.

hey may also have assessed that the new envoriment /hall situation was winding him up, a very common thing
During this 10 minutes ths dog was so strong for the elderly man that he hadnt managed to get him in the car yet.

thats the first you have mentionedc this, before he was waiting outside. Did he try to put him back in the car then?
The first pup he set eyes on he finally bust his collar, ran across the car par behind a car and set upon it.
Which happened to be my mum's dog, and my mum's dog was not even one of the pups that had reacted in the hall.

**** always happens to the people who will kick up most fuss, Surely your mother was being careful after seeing this dog react in the hall?

**** does indeed happen.
However, if you are a sewerage engineer and have been given some warnings, you know what you need to do to avoid being hit by said ****


my mum has no intention of going back to the club, their arent really others, she lives the middle of nowhere.
the club invited her back then couldnt understand why she didnt want to go!
this club runs the KCgood citizen scheme and has been going 30 years!!

& how many accidents have they had in this time?


What are you going to do now?
Report them to the Council? Kennel club? God?

How many Dog clubs have you been to? Ive been members of 3 & All run exactly in this way. Two KC reg & one not.

I really hope this club does not fold now , due to your interferance. So so sad.
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mishflynn
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06-07-2011, 06:03 AM
BTW , you really HAVENT mentioned how the little dog is. Showing exactly where your interests are imo.
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MichaelM
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06-07-2011, 08:43 AM
Originally Posted by Krusewalker View Post
He "got rid of the dog".
I think this a sad situation all round with no one body/individual at fault.

The rescue didn't want to place this dog in an unsuitable home (but did).

The owner didn't want an aggressive dog but seems to have got one. He sought help from what he thought was the correct place when he realised he had a problem.

The club can't control everything that happens on a training night, owners must take some responsibility, but things went wrong.

Your mum didn't want her dog attacked, but it was.

If there's one thing in there that set off this whole chain of events, I'd say it was the dog being placed with an unsuitable owner.
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ClaireandDaisy
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06-07-2011, 08:59 AM
re. my remark about the occurence of effluent:
Dogs aren`t babies. Dogs are animals. If one child`s pony kicks another you tell the kid on the kicker to take more care and put a red ribbon in the tail and tell the kid on the kicked to not get so close. You wouldn`t act like over-protective parents in a playground.
OK - so one animal slightly injured another animal. Not exactly earth-shattering. Could this not have been handled in a more civilised way?
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Krusewalker
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06-07-2011, 09:15 AM
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
I think this a sad situation all round with no one body/individual at fault.

The rescue didn't want to place this dog in an unsuitable home (but did).

The owner didn't want an aggressive dog but seems to have got one. He sought help from what he thought was the correct place when he realised he had a problem.

The club can't control everything that happens on a training night, owners must take some responsibility, but things went wrong.

Your mum didn't want her dog attacked, but it was.

If there's one thing in there that set off this whole chain of events, I'd say it was the dog being placed with an unsuitable owner.
Hello Michael
Thanks for your constructive thoughts.
I dont understand when you say the rescue did not want to place the dog with this man?
As we know nothing about the conversation held between him and the rescue, and they did give him the dog, so surely they did not think that much about the suitability? When i was a rehomer, we assessed the applicant as well as the dog and if the applicant was unsuitable for the dog we would not home the dog to them.
I have also expressed the conclusions that the rescue giving him an unsuitable dog set the chain of events off, he is a lonely senior citizen let down by 2 sets of dog professional really.

Of course clubs cant control everything, but they can minimise accidents by taking a basic risk assessment approach to their activities.
This applies to any organisation of any nature.
What you do is look at the nature of your work and predict the likely accidents.
You use a formula based around severity v probability.
Smokeybear has explained this well on her corn on the cob thread, as she does it for a living.
I have also written risk asssessment for multi dog environments.
Then you work out procedures you could introduce to avoid likelihood of predicated accident happening.

Its just a fancy way of saying common sense really,

And the procedures lacking at the club are the ones that most clubs have in play and place anyway, so the likelihood is the dog would not have been;
A) in the physical locale of the other dogs in the first place
b) its nature known about in the first place

This would be the case as the steps that many of these clubs take (which other people have mentioned earlier on this thread) would have covered all the bases under health and safety, control and handling, dog assessment and information gathering.

In that sense the club had clear responsbility for making sure they knew the exact nature of this dogs anti dog problems, and that he was told to wait in his car on arrival, and once they had sent him ou the hall for intruding on the puppy class, seeing the collar was loose and he couldnt handle the dog well, one of them should have gone outside with him to make sure he was safely tucked away in the car, helping him handle dog.
At that point i would have concluded from his behaviour, as many other trainer also would, that he wasnt suitable for the adult class anyway. I would contact him for an alternative plan.
If i hadnt done that, i would have wondered if he was outside and not let the pups leave until i checked.

if their was a dog attack in kmy car park, i certianly wuld be out their pronto. One has to ask the question how they didnt hear the commotion?
I would check my car park at times anyway.
(especially if i cant hear anything)

Added to that, i would accompany my class outside anyway, as that would be part of the dog training lesson, as i know that one of the most frequent complaints owners make is they cant repeat they training outside of class in everyday situations.

All clubs and rescues i have been associated have done all this naturally and normally, as have I.
All my friend whom have taken their dog to classes have also told me their clubs also did these things.

these sorts of practices would happen anywhere really, girl guides, school trips, so on so forth.
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inkliveeva
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06-07-2011, 09:42 AM
How long had your mum been attending the club ?
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MichaelM
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06-07-2011, 10:07 AM
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post

The rescue didn't want to place this dog in an unsuitable home (but did).

Originally Posted by Krusewalker View Post
Hello Michael
Thanks for your constructive thoughts.
I dont understand when you say the rescue did not want to place the dog with this man?

The rescue wouldn't have intentionally or maliciously placed this dog with an owner who would then deliberately allow the dog to attack another dog/pup.

They would have wanted the dog to go to an owner where the dog would be well looked after for the rest of it's life - they would have wanted the dog to go to it's "forever home".

I'm not saying it happened in this case, but there are still rescues out there where it is possible to walk in and leave with a dog. As volunteer, I've failed more homechecks than I've passed - some people genuinely don't realise they're unsuitable for a particular dog (if an individual considers it acceptable to drive a stake into the ground and chain the dog to it to stop the dog jumping over a 3 foot wall, I consider him unsuitaable - yet he couldn't see what was wrong with it. Going off topic a bit here!)
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Krusewalker
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06-07-2011, 10:29 AM
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
The rescue wouldn't have intentionally or maliciously placed this dog with an owner who would then deliberately allow the dog to attack another dog/pup.

not by conscious intent know, more by slack thinking really

They would have wanted the dog to go to an owner where the dog would be well looked after for the rest of it's life - they would have wanted the dog to go to it's "forever home".

thats the very point, i worked full time as a dog rehomer for several years. just like im saying their are set procedures for making sure accidents dont happen in training clubs, their are the same in rescues.
rescues are meant to assess dogs for temperament and behavior problems, then assess applicants for suitable dogs.
if both had been done at the rescue, this type of dog would not have been rehomed to this type of person.
myself or my colleagues would never even have done this rehoming, as we know full well it would have been far from a "forever home".
its a text book bad rehoming, as it goes


I'm not saying it happened in this case, but there are still rescues out there where it is possible to walk in and leave with a dog.

i know, its appalling. possibly where this chap got this dog is one of those.

As volunteer, I've failed more homechecks than I've passed - some people genuinely don't realise they're unsuitable for a particular dog (if an individual considers it acceptable to drive a stake into the ground and chain the dog to it to stop the dog jumping over a 3 foot wall, I consider him unsuitaable - yet he couldn't see what was wrong with it. Going off topic a bit here!)
you and i are most definitely on the same wavelength.

when he says he rescued the dog, it could have been a pound for all we know
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krlyr
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06-07-2011, 10:34 AM
Sounds an an unfortunate combination of a faulty collar and a "wrong place, wrong time" situation here really. Think the owner of the aggressive dog may have had better luck had he been advised to contact a behaviourist for a home visit rather than try to attend a group class with a dog he physically struggles with but I don't think the training club are the ones at fault here. Had an incident like this happened to my puppy when I attended puppy classes I would definately see it as a civil matter to take up with the owner of the dog, not the training class.
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Krusewalker
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06-07-2011, 10:39 AM
but the club didnt find about more aobut the dog in advance, nor did they tell him he may not be suitable for a group and offer him alterntatives.

that just told him to turn up several weeks into a course to socialise with other dogs.

even my mum's vet saw the error in this

as a trainer myself, i would have asked much more about his dog once he mentined dog aggression and arranged to meet dog in advance and offer the suitable training for him, every trainer i know wuld have done the same
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