Sadly the video won't stream on my pc so i just get glimpses of a stressed dog and a pleasant voice talking over. Will try and watch it on another pc.

Adam, you seem to not understand the difference between fear and frustration. If we use negative punishment the dog may feel some frustration. A decent trainer will know not to cause too much frustration, but will back up if the dog is not able to understand and go to something he can get rewarded for, then move forward in smaller steps on the original behaviour.

Negative reinforcement means that you have to inflict pain first so you can remove it to reinforce the dog. That is like someone holding your head under water for a minute and only letting you up when you 'submit' (negative reinforcement). It can hardly be compared with telling you that you can't have your ice cream until you have washed your hands (negative punishment).

Aversives don't have to cause fear, in fact any highly emotional state will be counter productive to learning.

At working level stim the dogs only raction to the e collar is looking at his chest. Thats it! you can train all the behaviours with that. The dog isn't afraid ect. If the dog was afraid/in pain he would vocalise and try and leave the area quickly.

Humanising is counter productive when discussing dog behaviour imo.

Adam

How do you define fear? To me if you want to avoid something then you would fear going near it. I might fall over the edge of a cliff, therefore I fear going near the edge.

Aversive = Causing avoidance of a thing, situation, or behavior by using an unpleasant or punishing stimulus

You may believe that 'humanising is counter productive' but I don't. It is often easier for owners to understand behaviour when they can relate it to their own experiences.

No worries, as long as the OP can understand what is wrong with aversives, that is fine.

I watched a bit of the vid - dosent impress me

I dont frustrate by witholding the treat espech when doing behaviour modification work
The dog dosent know a treat is coming, I set them up at a level they can suceed at and then reward them


I am not humanising what you are doing - using simple learning theory
If the dog didnt find the shock unplesant then they wouldnt work to avoid it
If it wasnt nasty then the removal of it wouldnt be reinforcing to the dog.

This is the crux of the matter. I wish it could just be admitted.



Wys
x

Recall training is really really simple! I don`t understand why certain trainers have such a problem teaching it.
It is the most basic of exercises. If a dog won`t come near the trainer, I think I`d be asking what`s wrong with the trainer, not what`s wrong with the dog.

Agree completely , but sadly we are dealing with the arrogance of youth


Adam, just out of curiosity, how will you train, if and when the e.collar gets banned here in England as it has been in Wales!!

What other tools have you in your box??

Do you know what really worries me, the owners of dogs that seem to agree with a trainer and go down this route. I know for a fact that I have had some BC's here that when they came training them was a bloody nightmare, the tears, frustrations, stress, feelings of failure (and thats just me ) then the positives that came through sheer hard work, trust, loyalty, respect, bonding.......(from me and the dog)
I could never see me using a trainer that said here's a e-collar and this is how we use it....regardless to what they were saying, just the thought that it was going to be used would see me walking.

I have taken on dogs here, that have had major issues, they have suffered abuse from human hands, been kicked, laid into with broomsticks, been burnt with cigarettes, been used a puppy farm bitches to breed over and over, been grabbed by the scruff, shook, held up off the floor, slammed into a door...............and then along comes little old me................how can anyone use a e-collar after that I couldn't and I have to say anyone coming into my life suggesting it would be in for a E SHOCK I can tell you.

So I can only pressume that you Adam only work with dogs that have only been owned once or maybe twice, with simple bad habits, because if your telling me that you would use one on the type of dogs I rescue.....may God forgive you

`Adam` has written on this forum that he has used electric shocks on abused dogs (his words).
I would like to see him banned from this forum - not because I believe anything he he says (because I don`t) but because I believe his membership of this forum brings it into disrepute.

I think that his membership brings this forum into disrepute too.
It is bad enough to think that poor unsuspecting owners are taken in with this practice and allow these things to be used thinking that the ''''trainer''''' knows best. However
if an animal is abused....and I have some here that have been, hence the reason for my list of things humans do.....this is a disgusting practice, and one that should be stopped.
Abused animals have already lost trust....they will NOT gain trust of humans using these kind of aids.

If ever I met Adam I think my actions would not be responsible ones, as to think that he admits to using these aids is absolutely disgusting