I had this with Daisy one time (a total regression) and went back to my trainer who simply raised an eyebrow and asked... so, are you going walkies now or are you training?`. I thought about that for a bit, and realised that yes, we were just ambling along doing walkies now, and she was getting away with murder right from the off.
I had relaxed, and she was taking full advantage.
So I went back to basics and inside a week we regained lost ground.
Try taking a step back yourself. There`s no rush.
BTW have you managed to read `Understanding and handling Dog Aggression` by Barbara Sykes? I found it very helpful, because it describes the problems she had, including the setbacks
x

sorry you have had a little setback

You have had lots of good advice already - just wanted to add my little take on it

I know when Mia has already reacted then she is far less able to cope with new stuff
so the fact he got a fright at the doorbell ment he was already high as a kite
then the reaction made him even more stressed - so he was less able to handle training class

I think its a great idea giving him a while to calm down, and get the full whack from the new collar

as c&d says - when you have a bad day remember all the good days
It too easy to go 'thats it all my good work ruined!'
I look at it more that every time I went for a walk Mia had a reaction
so if now she has 1 or 2 in a month - that reaction isnt the end of the world - its just showing how far we have come - but we are not yet there yet

I am resigned to the fact that she will always be a work in progress, that her life has to have lots more routien than a 'normal' dog

but looking to my left seeing the little lady streached out, paws crossed and a little smile on her face
- shes worth it!

C&D, about the relaxing training, I've been thinking. Hmmmm, perhaps that could have had an effect. He's made such huge progress over the last 6 months, I was finally starting to feel confident and trust him, maybe a bit too much.

At the dog walk I gave him a lot more freedom than usual, given his good behaviour. I muzzled him and gave him the full slack of the long line to allow him to interact normally with the other dogs (i normally keep him on a short lead and pull him out when he jumps). I thought maybe he was ready to start learning how to interact normally with less interference from me. He got put in his place (but fairly) a few times by one dog, he also got told off fairly severely by another, which I don't know if that's unsettled him. Maybe he felt I didn't protect him properly from that so now he feels he needs to protect himself again? Although he seemed ok for the rest of the walk after the incident. I don't know what's caused it.

I had a look at that book on Amazon before but got q but put off by reviews saying it was a bit old school and lots of pack theory in it......? What's it like? I know Cain needs a strong leader but I don't believe the dominance stuff. I just want him to look to me as his protector.

I don't know how much truth is in it as I haven't really researched it in detail (though I've heard a few other people agree with it), but when I went to the Grumpy Dogs workshop they pointed out that when a reactive dog gets into a reactive situation, the adrenaline/fear/whatever it sets off can often leave them on high alert for the next few doors - it was recommended that should you find yourself unavoidably in a reactive situation then to give the dog some very calm days afterwards. This may mean minimal, or even no walks, if you can't guarantee you won't come into an awkward situation, but it gives the dog a chance to calm down without worsening. Perhaps the Dogsey walk combined with the collar running low has left him a little mroe highly strung than usual, the doorbell thing was just unfortunate and wound him up a bit further, hence the lunging yesterday.

If it's any consolation, you should see Kiki when we get visitors I know it's an issue and it's something I'm trying to work on but I need a stooge person to keep knocking on the door to let me practise it - living remotely as I do, we don't get many visitors and so a polite greeting isn't something I get to practise too often, which I think is why it's become more of an issue - when Kiki lived here with my mum and stepdad, they often had people over, plus me and my brothers visiting, now it's just me and my brother (and our OHs) there's not half as much "traffic" in and out of the house. The polite doggy you saw on Saturday turns into an OTT barking madam who will rush over (quite intimidating when it's a Rottie) if I let her. Until it's sorted, I keep her on lead or shut away when people visit - alternatively I shut her out, let the visitor in, then let her back in - she's much happier with strangers if they're already in the house. Personally, my preference for when we move is to get a house with a hallway so I can fix a babygate across a doorway and stop the dogs getting to the door fullstop - it's not really necessary for them to greet people at the door, they're more comfortable with people who are already inside the house, and you never know when a dog may just react to a new person in a totally out of the blue way, even if they've been 100% perfect before, so I want to remove that risk of someone getting scared or even nipped. So you're certainly not the only one to have issues with dogs & doors!

I've just caught up with this thread & I'm so sorry you're feeling down about Cain's behaviour at the mo. I can only echo what everyone else has said about setbacks, patience etc.

But I have noted a few things that you've said about the incident at the door. Firstly you were "dishing up dinner" at the time the doorbell rang. Is Cain excited by dinner? Could this have meant that he was already aroused by the prospect of food, then the doorbell rang & increased the arousal even more? By the time you'd let your friend in, it was already too much for Cain to cope with.

Secondly you mentioned a change in the greeting visitors at the door routine as in you omitted the squeaky voiced "who's this then?" & you'd recently stopped giving treats at the door. Perhaps it's too early to do this? A change in the normal & predictable routine can have a very unsettling effect on a dog that has only recently started to learn how to handle situations that were previously quite scary.

Whilst muzzling may be a good idea from your point of view & from a safety angle, as I'm sure you know, it won't stop Cain's reaction as in barking, lunging, & large muzzled dogs can still hurt the unsuspecting visitor ~ so be aware!

But I am very sympathetic to your problems with Cain & I know exactly what you're going through having had the same experiences with a previous dog. Even if you do sometimes think "what have we taken on" ~ don't beat yourself up for having these thoughts ~ they're perfectly normal. You'd be abnormal if you didn't think them!

One thing that I think you should try to be aware of with Cain is his arousal level at any given time. A calm, relaxed & settled Cain is far less likely to "kick off" than an aroused, unsettled & anxious Cain. So if you are conscious of the fact that Cain is not feeling quite relaxed, (e.g. at feeding times, just after a walk when he's still a bit hyped up, or just after a visitor has left, or anything else that gets him a bit aroused), then go back to basics at these times. Perhaps shut him another room with a chew when visitors arrive? It is surprising how long the physiological state of arousal lasts ~ even when the outward behavioural signs may suggest that Cain is calm, the internal state can still be "aroused" & it doesn't take much for the behavioural state to catch up if another incident happens!

Another thing to watch for with a dog like Cain is the quantity & quality of sleep. It can have a big effect on getting baseline stress reduced. So a few disturbed nights can have a big effect on tolerance, stress & irritability ~ & we all know how lack of sleep affects us. Dogs are polyphasic sleepers which means that they don't need a set 8 hours in 24, but can sleep in shorter bursts of 2-3 hours, can catch up if sleep is missed & are more adept at changing their internal body clocks than we are. The quality of sleep means that they must be able to go through the different stages of sleep from dozing, to "short wave" sleep to R.E.M. sleep. The different stages serve different purposes, e.g. body repair, mental rest, memory consolidation, i.e. learning. In order to reach R.E.M. sleep dogs really need to be able to sleep flat on their sides (lateral recumbency), so it's important that dogs have a place where they can fully stretch out to sleep & not be confined to a bed where they have to curl up. Plus they shouldn't be disturbed during sleep.

I don't know if any of this is relevent to Cain, but can be things to bear in mind.

But please don't worry that you're doing anything wrong ~ you are so obviously a lovely caring owner who is doing her very best to help Cain. And sometimes just doing nothing but keeping a dog safe & calm can work wonders. And I'm sure the problems will ease as Cain gets older.

Amanda I am really very sorry if Ollie's strop at Cain has set him back. As you will have seen Ollie is very focused on his "work" and having warned Cain about something a few minutes earlier, he probably just lost his temper at him. Kiki was superb at putting Cain and anyone else she felt needed it in their place. Unfortunately Ollie does not have the maturity or experience of Kiki in managing such situations and just wanted to make sure it didn't happen again. I feel partly responsible because I saw that Ollie was lying down with his bottle and turned to speak to someone, so took my eye off the ball. The next thing I knew it had all kicked off but I hadn't actually seen what caused it.

Maxine, I don't know what has caused Cain this set back so don't worry about it. I certainly not trying to single the Ollie incident out. I only mentioned it as I think through in my head what factors may have caused this change in behaviour. I think they just wondered too close to each other, I didn't spot Ollie there. Cain wondered over and Ollie worried Cain would take his bottle. It's just one of those things. Cain may have found the repeated corrections by Kiki more stressful than I realised. I felt her behaviour fair and Cain seemed to respect her, but I can't truely say I know that he wasn't stressed by it. I don't know how anything that day really affected him. He seemed fine after the scuffle with Ollie, no obvious distress or fear of the other dogs suddenly. I'm just trying to think over in my head anything that's happened recently that may have affected him. Maybe the whole walk in general was too much too soon. It could be one of a million things. It could be nothing obvious except Cains just decided to have a set back! I don't know. It could be as simple ad his DAP collar running low. It's probably a combination of factors but it's just one of those things. I certainly don't think that one scuffle alone had done this, so don't worry about it. Maybe I just pushed him too soon?

Why is that necessary then?? Why do dogs have to be "put in their place" when out on a nice long walk, mooching about, sniffing around, and just having fun? I like to see a group of dogs all happy together, I don't think I'd like to be in a group where one dog is constantly nagging at the others, it just doesn't seem fair to me? What are the others doing wrong then (unless of course, they're showing aggression towards everyone else??). I've never seen that when out with a group of dogs, they've always just got on with the walk without any upsets? I've walked with 8 dogs with both of mine and nobody put anyone else's dogs in their place? Just interested that's all! Maybe Kiki is a little miss bossy boots like my old Cassie was!!!

I was filled with admiration for you after that walk. You were absolutely shattered having been wrestling with Cain for 3.5 hours and were still cheerful and upbeat....and took him across the stepping stones (rather than the bridge) again! Personally, I would try to take him on such walks again, but keep him on a short lead with his halti on. Then he still gets the exercise and sees other dogs from a safe distance but his stress levels (and yours) are kept much lower. I really do hope that you will both join us all again.

Well Cain hadn't showed negative behaviour towards other dogs in a long time. His main problem was wanting to play far too rough and jumping on other dogs heads. He also scares them by running up for too fast. Most dogs either a) run away from him or b) play just as hard, neither of which were teaching him any manners. What I felt was that Cain was at a point where a sort of "stooge dog" who fairly taught him what was acceptable would help him. She told him off with short warnigns and he quickly learned to behave next to her. He spent about an hour walking alongside he, sniffing the same bused and not trying to pound her flat....which for Cain was a HUGE deal as he's never shown that sort of calmness before. I don't know, maybe that stressed him too.

I don't knooooooooooooooooow I was just trying to do the best by him and now he seemed more confident, wanted to get him socialising in an acceptable manner. Maybe it was the wrong thing to do