Metric or Imperial, it's massive Promethean !! 73 odd disgusting fat wobbly kilos !!

And I agree with what you have said.

But why would you ever need to pin a dog?

Hi,

There's no need to pin down a dog or alpha roll them. the research has been done and those techniques are outdated.

The more I think about what happend the angrier I'm getting. I've just got off the phone to the trainer (agility and puppy class). She suggeste that I move up a class with Yianis. This would then mean I woul dbe in the intermediate class. I can iunderstand that she wasnts Yiannis to progress but that's down to the work I do with him at home as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not going to put him into a situation where Neil hurts him. I know I'd get arrested for what I'd do to someone who hurt my dogs.

I'll keep him in the puppy class as long as it takes for him to be good enough to jump straight into the advanced class - as with Zane. And at training next Tuesday I'll be advising others to do the same. That''s in addition to the dogs/owners in neil's class who moved up when Zane moved up. To be honest I don't knwo why they're still not in the top class as we don't do that much that's different. And if there is anything that your dog doesn't know, isn't it a challenege to work on for the next session? Or is it just me that thinks this way??

The more I think about what Neil did to Thomas the more angry I'm getting. I feel guilty that I said and did nothing at the time. I di dnothing to help Thomas when he needed it and he most certainly needed someone to pull him out of the situation he was in.

If I could turn back time I'm sure I would go wading in and shouting at neil. Whislt it was all going on to begin with I did hear Neil say something about Thomas not biting him. When he stood up I saw no blood, no red marks or bruises of any sort on his arms or hands that were expossed and within easy reach of Thomas's teeth. Even if Thomas had tried to really bite him hard, does he not have the right to defend himself? After all, it wasn't just an alpha roll. Neil actually hurt him.

I'm goign to try to stop thinking abouit it now. There's nothing I can say or do until something similar happens again and training isnt now until next Tuesday. I'm going to try to focus on other things for 6 days - any ideas??

Laura xx

Nice one Laura - i hope it gets sorted out. Hopefully Richard will be able to take his dog into the advanced class and hopefully not dwell on what has happened.

I would be moving my dogs to a club that doesn't use coercion in any form, the association I am a member of would expel any member found doing anything like that to a dog. If you train using positive reinforcement there is no place for "correction" in any form (as is said CM uses when trying to train loose lead) and it isn't needed anyway! Ask yourself - do I want a pal to do fun things with or a servant?

Hi,

Sher - I know what you mean. I have 3 fantastic pals (very loopy ones!), not servants.

The awful thing about this is that it's only Neil who's started doign this. Th epupp class trainer has had GSDs her whole life, is in her 70s and has been training dogs for over 45 years. Although her methods are a little old fashioned, she does not hurt dogs. She does shout at her own dogs occasionsally but if you're trying to do somethign and can't, she'll take the dog to show you exactly how to do what it is you're trying to achieve. She always asks if this is OK beforehand and she's always far more gentle with others' dogs than with her own.

The trainer of the advanced class is much the same but by the time your dog is good enough to train with that group, the basic obedience etc has already been done. So the emphasis is on doign silly tricks and things that are fun. We play games with the dogs, add a littel extra to the retrieve/recall exercises etc. So her methods are different but again, she's been involved in dog owership and training for her whole life.

Both the puppy class trainer and advanced class trainer work within the guidelines of the APDT, evne though they're not a registered club. Bythis I mean they don't allow choke chains, sprays, e-collars etc. Anyone arriving with these items are not permitted to use them in the class and anyone with a choke chain wil be lent a more appropriate collar/lead/harness etc for the duration of the class.

It's a shame that Neil's actions are going to end up ruining the reputation of the other 2 trainers so they need to deal with it now before any more dogs get hurt. To be honest, I think he should be replaced.

Furthermore (JMO) Neil should consider himself privileged to train dogs. It's a career i thought of a long time ago and did nothing about it. Now it's too late for me so to be n that position and practixcally throw it all away by doing something silly i sbeyond me.

Laura xx

Hi Laura ,
Absolutely appalling , poor dog , what exactly did the dog do wrong , pull . wouldn't the owner have done better just to correct with a simple sit wait and then allow, the moment for any correction had gone.
pointless and upsetting correction for the dog.
This is the issue with people trying to copy ultimately what they don't understand and the result , is the dog reacts in a fearful sate.
the reaction and correction need to be immediate when the body lanau, displayed would have been present else the correction has no point the dog has moved on and as dogs mind does not work in the same way our s do does not have a logical thought process , the dog would not have understood it was for the pulling.
I would suggest however this is not the C.m way(sorry haven't seen to much of his work , understand not very many people like him) just some pratts interprtation of it
if anyone did this to my dogs i would stand up and say something at the very least.

I feel the instructor was wrong, not only heavy handed, but giving a "correction" too late.
If it had been a terrier or toy dog I wonder what she would have done ?

Sounds to me as if Pet Dog training is not suitable for this instructor.

HIYA

I have read this with interest, I have a bit of a story which still makes me shudder and makes me sick to think i let someone do this to Bruno...

After many knockbacks from dog training classes locally, due to bruno being dog aggressive. i called one out in Midlothian who agreed he would take Bruno on to see if he could help.
He was an ex police dog trainer so I thought this would be ok, however he did ask me to put a check chain on him. I didnt fancy that so bought a half check instead.

Got to the class and he saw the half check and said "no good " and he put a full check on Bruno and then proceeded to take Bruno off me, out in to the middle of the field where his dog was sitting patiently, stood bruno next to his dog at which point Bruno was barking etc and he then proceeded to lift bruno up by the lead a collar and throttle the living daylights out of him until he stopped trying to attack the dog. I was stood still horrified but unable to move and didnt know what to do..... It was awful, it was only a few minutes but I just froze.

he brought Bruno back who had his tail between his legs at this point and Bruno didnt go for another dog for the rest of the time, Yes I stayed in the class I just didnt know what to do !!

He had him walking up and down right beside other dogs and running loose through them by him leading Bruno away from me and then letting him go - he recalled straight to me, which in hindsight was probably because he was bloody terrified of the trainer.

At the end of the class everyone was saying - oh your dog was good and trainer got him sorted etc he is really good with dogs like yours etc....

I said very little and left. I got in the car looked at Bruno who had a large purple mark on his throat and burst into tears !!

he was hoarse and couldnt bark for about 4 days after that class and needless to say still showed aggressive behaviour to other dogs and obviously I didnt go back to the class. But at the time I wphysically couldnt do anything - I didnt know what to do really.

HIndsight is wonderful and I would NEVER put Bruno in that position again but there are so many bad trainers out there and for the dogs who do need some assistance in the training department it seems that most of the supposedly good ones dont want to deal with them - I got refused 10 classes before finding that one.... so there must be loads of people who think this is the way to train.

I was recently on a mums forum and they were all discussing their new pups and the amount of people who recommended rolling and pinning them down was unbelieveable !!!!