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Location: West Sussex
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19-02-2009, 06:33 PM
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Location: Wiltshire, UK
Joined: Nov 2008
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19-02-2009, 07:19 PM
guys thank you so much for giving this so much thought and effort I really appreciate ALL the advice so far. I've just got some comments to make:
Originally Posted by esmed 
Have you tried crating the other way round as in crated in the afternoon rather than the morning.
We find with Monty that he is more active/mischievous in the afternoon. In the morning he has had interaction with Rich from 6am and then a walk with me from 7am and I leave at 8:15am by which point he's ready for a snooze.
However in the afternoon he's only had half an hour of playtime with me when I'm home on lunch and therefore there is more mess to clear up when I get home in the evening than there is when I get home at lunch.
Might be worth a go?
Originally Posted by skilaki
I think that we need to put leaving a dog in a crate for 2 four hour periods with a break inbetween, for 3 days a week in perspective.
If a dog is otherwise loved, well-fed, excercised, stimulated, has a cosy den-like crate, but has to spend this period of time in a crate for 3 days, and is fussed over and has attention once it is out, I don't think that is such a bad thing. It's not ideal, but it is not cruel either. I would much rather leave a puppy in a crate, than free to destroy the house and hurt itself. It will settle better in the crate.
The other thing to consider is that if a pup is left to destroy a house and chew indiscriminately for months, it may get into the habit of doing so, and may continue to do so as an adult, as after all it hasn't been taught that it is not allowed, but being corrected under supervision. The whole house is a toy for his entertainment in his mind.
Ok, my dog isn't left for more than a few hours at a time, and most days I am with it all day, but then I am very lucky in that I don't have an 9-5 office job. Most folk have to go out to work, it is the realities of modern life, and many dogs happily adjust to this.
Originally Posted by CheekyChihuahua
With regard to the off-lead runs that some have suggested, I think that Woody has an issue with the development of his legs, so too much off-lead might not be advisable. I'm not sure though, perhaps I'm getting him mixed up with another dog on here
I didn't suggest too much exercise for Woody because of this but obviously, if his legs are okay now, then the more exercise he gets the more he'll sleep when Pidge is at work
Originally Posted by labradork
20 minutes off lead at his own pace on soft ground would be better for him than 20 minutes of pounding the pavements. IMO.
[QUOTE=catrinsparkles;1609575][QUOTE=labradork;1609346]The degree I am studying is based heavily on behavioural neuroscience, so I am quite aware of current research in this field. If you can point me towards a credible source that says that leaving an otherwise well exercised/stimulated dog, alone for two four hour periods (with break in between and company at all other times), is highly detrimental to it's welfare, I would be very happy to read it.
Don't mistake owners who leave their dogs responsibly with ones that don't.
Originally Posted by labradork
Once again you are jumping to your own defence it seems, i did not say that people who leave their dogs are irresponsible owners....but yes i do think crating a young dog for two periods of fours hours a day, without company is irresponsible.
If you are well read in dog behaviour i am sure that you know that you can very easily find research explaining the detrement of leaving dogs for long periods unstimulated. YOu say that it is not detrimental if the dog has been stimulated sufficiently etc...once again i say that an hours walk inbetween periods of four hours in a crate, with no company is not adequate!!
If you are so well read then you will know, and could even guess what detrimental effect this may well have on a young active dog.
8 - 12 am in a crate, then out for an hours walk, then 1 - 5pm back in crate.
Pidge has already said that Woody is bitey and very very lively when she gets home, and has also been distructive. These are very clear signs from the dog that he is not satisfied with the amount of stimulation, exercise, company etc that he is getting on the days he is being left for these times. How clearer can he make it?! Putting him in a crate for longer is more likely to lead to more behavioural issues when he is out of the crate, even more excess energy etc etc.
Putting him in a crate will stop him damaging the house but it will not give him any more stimulation, company or exercise, it will give him less........he won't be able to move around so much, throw toys around as much etc etc. How on earth is that fair or making things any better for him?!
If you really are that well read surely you can see that. Putting him in a crate is mearly dealing with the symptoms and not the cause of the problem and if you really feel this is truly fair to the dog and good for his welfare than there is nothing more to be said really.......especially when there are other options such as a dog walker to be looked into......but hay, whatever, lets go for the easy option and stick him in a crate again......after all, lots of dogs get used to it and deal with it.
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg
That would be a brill option!
Would another be setting aside a room for Woody be possible? when I had my dogs and worked I used to make my bedroom theirs and I dog proofed it pretty much. I did have to totally change my life job wise after a year as my dogs needed more of me, but it certainly helped.
Just wanted to add as well - i
So, on the days he is with you Pidge,
he will need to sometimes be helped to enjoy time on f Woody is left on 3 days but has company the rest of the time, he will possibly be more anxious when left on those 3 days because the rest of the time he's with Pidge and her family. his own, ie perhaps put behind a child gate where he can still see you but with a yummy chewy stuffed kong or bone so he starts to enjoy being on his own. When young a dog needs to realise that being "alone" is actually sometimes a pleasant thing. You may have to do it quite slowly at first though ie a few seconds at a time and build it up....does that make any sense? Wys
x
From now on I will start putting him in other rooms and not spending all my time at home with him. It's not all about him (although it is ;o)
Originally Posted by labradork
Actually, I can't because as far as I am aware, it doesn't exist. And yes, I just spent time crawling the scientific journals I subscribe to online. Certainly, there was nothing about the effects of leaving an otherwise well exercised/stimulated and cared for dog alone for fours hours, then an hour break, then another four hours. To be honest, I can't imagine that would make for a particularly interesting piece of research
You are mistaking very normal puppy behaviour for boredom. Have you ever owned a gundog breed? gundog breeds are naturally very mouthy and in-your-face. I nicknamed my Lab, and my old Cocker incidentally, as little 'land sharks'. They love to get their teeth on anything.
Also, what dog ISN'T lively when their owner gets in from work, or being gone for a few hours?
Again, I think you are blowing this whole thing out of proportion. The OP isn't crating the dog for 9 hours straight without a break and no or limited exercise/stimulation/company at other times. Sadly that IS reality for many dogs, and I don't agree with that at all as much as the next person. But that ISN'T the case here and quite frankly you are making a mountain out of a molehill.
I think it'll be interesting to see what his behaviour is like when I get home and he's been crated. In the past he's been much calmer actually.
I think on Monday I'm going to leave him in the hallway in the morning and crate in the afternoon and see how he is. If it doesn't work on Tue I'll crate him for both intervals. If that doesn't work I'll research getting a puppy sitter in.
Hopefully, once I'm more settled in my new job and he's calmed down abit more I can take him to work with me. the only reason I haven't been able to do it yet is because my Director, who I share an office with, has her 7 month old lab in the office and my admin team, in the next office have a 10 month old lab so we don't want Woody to come in and cause havoc with them, even though they're crated under the desks as he would be.
Oh and if any of you peeps studying animal behaviour want to PM me I can give you some useful info about the company I work for who carry out Companion Animal Research and the benefits of it in certain situations such as elderly, mentally handicapped or people going through therapy etc.
Pidge xx
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Location: n/a
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19-02-2009, 07:43 PM
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Location: england
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,601
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19-02-2009, 08:40 PM
Originally Posted by labradork
Actually, I can't because as far as I am aware, it doesn't exist. And yes, I just spent time crawling the scientific journals I subscribe to online. Certainly, there was nothing about the effects of leaving an otherwise well exercised/stimulated and cared for dog alone for fours hours, then an hour break, then another four hours. To be honest, I can't imagine that would make for a particularly interesting piece of research
You are mistaking very normal puppy behaviour for boredom. Have you ever owned a gundog breed? gundog breeds are naturally very mouthy and in-your-face. I nicknamed my Lab, and my old Cocker incidentally, as little 'land sharks'. They love to get their teeth on anything.
Also, what dog ISN'T lively when their owner gets in from work, or being gone for a few hours?
Again, I think you are blowing this whole thing out of proportion. The OP isn't crating the dog for 9 hours straight without a break and no or limited exercise/stimulation/company at other times. Sadly that IS reality for many dogs, and I don't agree with that at all as much as the next person. But that ISN'T the case here and quite frankly you are making a mountain out of a molehill.
You feel i am making a mountain out of a molehill because i do not agree with you - i think your advice is wrong and ill founded and wanted to give Pidge advice,......which seems to be very similar to what other people have said aswell.
I guess Pidge will go with your advice, because "you have gundogs" and Pidge also seems to think that this means you have to deal with them differently to other dogs, i.e get a gun dog trainer......and i think it is what Pidge wanted to hear in the first place. Sorry Pidge, but that's what i feel.
I was waiting for the "have you ever owned a gun dog?" stance, that old chesnut. So if i hadn't i would be unqualified to comment? Interesting. Yes i have owned a gundog thank you very much, i have also owned a fox hound cross, a sight hound, a gsdx collie, a staffie x etc etc and i work with a massive range of dogs weekly and have done for 15 years! Rescue, non resuce, in and out of kennels etc. I agree completely that breed traits have to be taken into account when considering behaviour but hate to see it used as an excuse. "he's a springer he's bound to mouthy etc etc" E.g that is my excuss for the way he is rather than anything than i have done, or am doing.
Really not interested in arguing with you about this anymore - especially as i have said before that a dog walker would be an option......and i would have thought preferable to the dog being left for longer.......why on earth you would choose crating again over a walker defeats me really. I don't agree with crating for nine hours either and i don't agree with the four hours twice a day either.....and if you have an option not to do it......then i would chose to take the option of not doing.
Pissed off with the whole thing now and frankly got better things to do really and worry about.
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Location: Wiltshire, UK
Joined: Nov 2008
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19-02-2009, 10:02 PM
Originally Posted by labradork
Bye then. Have a nice jolly evening.
Catrin, I have always appreciated your advice and hope it continues. Yes, I may not always take it and sometimes I may adapt it but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate it and take it all on board. I don't want you to be upset about it and assume it's just a combination of things and frustration so get a grip, we're just virtual folks really and it's no big deal. K?
xx
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Location: UK
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,411
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19-02-2009, 11:12 PM
Originally Posted by catrinsparkles
My dog is not particularly lively after being left for a few hours - seeing as you asked!! She greats us and then calms down.
You feel i am making a mountain out of a molehill because i do not agree with you - i think your advice is wrong and ill founded and wanted to give Pidge advice,......which seems to be very similar to what other people have said aswell.
I guess Pidge will go with your advice, because "you have gundogs" and Pidge also seems to think that this means you have to deal with them differently to other dogs, i.e get a gun dog trainer......and i think it is what Pidge wanted to hear in the first place. Sorry Pidge, but that's what i feel.
I was waiting for the "have you ever owned a gun dog?" stance, that old chesnut. So if i hadn't i would be unqualified to comment? Interesting. Yes i have owned a gundog thank you very much, i have also owned a fox hound cross, a sight hound, a gsdx collie, a staffie x etc etc and i work with a massive range of dogs weekly and have done for 15 years! Rescue, non resuce, in and out of kennels etc. I agree completely that breed traits have to be taken into account when considering behaviour but hate to see it used as an excuse. "he's a springer he's bound to mouthy etc etc" E.g that is my excuss for the way he is rather than anything than i have done, or am doing.
Really not interested in arguing with you about this anymore - especially as i have said before that a dog walker would be an option......and i would have thought preferable to the dog being left for longer.......why on earth you would choose crating again over a walker defeats me really. I don't agree with crating for nine hours either and i don't agree with the four hours twice a day either.....and if you have an option not to do it......then i would chose to take the option of not doing.
Pissed off with the whole thing now and frankly got better things to do really and worry about.
I have owned gundogs for decades and find that if they are bored or under stimulated they can be very destructive and naughty. I have 2 GSPs at the moment and will be taking on an additional 17 month old Springer dog this weekend that has failed to cope with being left for 10 hours during the day with 2 visits per day from a dogwalker. I'll let you know how we get on...
ETA - I have never owned a crate so couldn't comment on their usefulness. I have always found company, training, stimulation, exercise and a very large, dog proof kitchen kept us all sane.
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Location: Dogsey and Worcestershire
Joined: May 2004
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19-02-2009, 11:33 PM
as I suggested in my earlier post the best option is to ask if you can take Woody to work if at all possible . I think you mentioned in a later post you intend to soon. I have always taken dogs to work including Chloe, she had a crate in my office and my boss had a Lab puppy Purdy who was in a crate in another office and they came out for play sessions and a little walk at frequent intervals. After a play together they settled down quickly. I worked through my breaks to make up for any time lost.
Here they are having a play session ...
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Location: Dorset
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20-02-2009, 01:53 AM
My springers wouldnt of done this as adults let alone pups.
This is what I was trying to explain to you the other day having had 2 springers from pups and fostered for springer welfare they are different from any other dog I have owned there is a reason they thrive on small holdings and working, they need stimulation and human contact.
I have fostered a few springers from same setups that had OCD chasing shadows as thats what they did to stimulate themselves and is a nightmare to break.
I do believe unless you are home 70-80% of the time and outdoors lots then a springer isnt the dog for you.
Its sounds like something has to give.Its a shame he hasnt got an older dog for company mine defo calmed a tad when there was 2 of them.
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Location: Wiltshire, UK
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20-02-2009, 08:18 AM
Originally Posted by kcjack
I hate to say it but he is spending way to long in a crate he must be going demented, I think crates are great for getting dogs clean through the night and if door open and enter by there own choice but sounds like Woodys prison. I think when used like this is it is lazy dog ownership.
My springers wouldnt of done this as adults let alone pups.
This is what I was trying to explain to you the other day having had 2 springers from pups and fostered for springer welfare they are different from any other dog I have owned there is a reason they thrive on small holdings and working, they need stimulation and human contact.
I have fostered a few springers from same setups that had OCD chasing shadows as thats what they did to stimulate themselves and is a nightmare to break.
I do believe unless you are home 70-80% of the time and outdoors lots then a springer isnt the dog for you.
Its sounds like something has to give.Its a shame he hasnt got an older dog for company mine defo calmed a tad when there was 2 of them.
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