Clob, I am aware of other forms of stimulation, but can we stick to the e-collar. The deep throat big jim frankly made my eyes water and I'm not a bloke. Also the difference is we have a choice whether or not we choose to use stimulation in whatever shape or form on our own bodies and I am also quite sure some people would even be willing to pay for it, but if we use the e-collar the dog has no choice in the matter, I also think the levels of stimulation would be somewhat different. I would certainly hope so, can't imagine any guy inflicting on his penis the same level of stimulation as would correct a dog in hot pursuit of some desired object. eeeek doesn't bear thinking about

Yeah come on clob, lets get this out in the open.
I not only think it is cruel, I think it is unneccessary as previously stated you can train a dog to only eat on a given command.

I haven't actualy seen it, Im sure Lou will make his comments on it when he hs time to post, I will look later but now I am off out and taking my severely ‘shocked’ dog with me.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j231/shots49/15.jpg

OMG....
I've got deja vu.
Been here recently.
Okay (rolls up sleeves and sighs) here's my twopeence worth.

Clob.
No-one wants to buy an ecollar form you okay?
No-one wants one, end of.

To even suggest that I leave an ecollar on my dog at all times is totally ludicrous.

I train my dogs with patience, kindness and OMG TREATS. Lots and lots of lovely treats. My dogs love me. Actually, most dogs love me, they follow me round. I smell lovely to dogs and strange dogs in the park and on the street sit next to me for a reward. Fantastic.
The obedience level of my dogs has been commented on by a broad range of people.

My dogs, it has been proven ( in ways I can't go into on here but believe me) DO NOT RESPOND to physical methods of training in any way, shape or form. My dogs only respond to:
1) Verbal praise and encouragement...stupid, high pitched 'good boy'
2) physical rewards...a soft stroke or tickle goes a long way
3) food rewards.
If any other methods are used with my dogs, any methods for example, that involve punishment or pain, they refuse, yes, refuse to do as they are asked and they submit...they get nervous and upset and submissive. An e collar would not work on my dogs because it would make them fearful. actually, they generally do the complete opposite of what they are being asked to do.
My dogs want to be with me...they come to me 'cos they want to, becuase I am much more interesting than anyone or anything else.
Clob and co. You have come on here and been patronising in the extreme.
There are a lot of people on here who understand perfectly the whole OC thing. We don't feel the need to go on about it because:
1) People glaze..I glaze...it's actually quite dull
2) Most people just want to know how they can get their dog to do something in a kind manner and non threatening manner.

To be perfectly honest, to be a good trainer, you don't HAVE to know the theories.

Clob, people love their dogs. They don't want to hurt them. Leave it at that.Give up on here cos no-one wants one.

Positive and negative what /why/who.

I am not a dog trainer just someone who has successfully trained dogs over many years with the use of time, patience, constancy, kindness and common sence. I don't know enough about what is 'positive' or 'negative' training to get into a discussion about it having been taught to train dogs by people who were around long before such terms became fashionable . Anyway I am not here to impress people with my knowledge, just to help other pet owners if and when I can . Most people who come to dog forums aren't interested in discussing the technicalities of dog training , they just want bit of advice from someone who has tried methods that have worked (as I suspect the original thread poster did), they can then take or leave the advice as they choose.

On the odd occasion when I have visited other forums I have seen people 'pushing' various forms of stimulation collars , they manage to turn every topic onto the subject so one can presume they earn commission on sales. These people have an evangelistic almost fanatical approach ,to them the collars are 'cure alls' so arguing with these people is pointless.

I would never use any device to train a dog but then I have never needed to , I leave such things to the people who are not able to train using any other methods.

well said mini.

totally agree.

Good points Mini.

And e-collars can fail too, just like any other electrical device. I know, if my dog fails to respond to a 'leave it' command, for the sake of his 'safety' I'll just clobber him over the head with a club and render him unconscious. Hey, he won't get run over anyway.

Well said Mini! Thank goodness for reason!

As Mini says, it doesn't matter what you call it, and as common sense helps (most of) us translate what each other means, what's the problem with saying positive or negative training methods?

Why Clob, must you assume we are talking about operant conditioning, and therefore we are just getting it wrong? Could it be that you are just looking for some way to feel superior about having read a couple of books on canine psychology? Go away and look up "positive" and "negative" in the dictionary. No mention of dog training, not even operant conditioning - what a surprise! So before getting ripped into people about semantics, just check your own footing. There is no need for all your negativity!

Yes well said, totally agree too.
And knowing all the terms doesn't make a good trainer; probably why some people do need electric collars for their poor dogs

Oh, and judging by your use of those well known SI units - bounces per sec - in that article, I can see we're dealing with some really intellectual scientific research. NOT.