I was talking about the time the sheep ran into a corner and Spike caught up with it.

It may not hurt youbut you are not your dog. When you tried it,it may have felt like a static shock...that is uncomfortable, it's not a good sensation, even when you KNOW that it's coming. Your dog didn't. Nor do you sense the world in the same way your dog does. Your over riding sense is sight, for your dog is smell and sound so you have absolutely no idea how an ecollar smells or sounds when it's activated.

You can tell yourself all you like your dog wasn't hurt, but we all know dog's don't SHOW pain in the same way we do. I have felt an ecollar on a low setting and it hurt...and for the record it is on my medical notes, VERY clearly that I have a very high pain threshold.

Keep him on a lead.

I think that is an interesting answer too, we have cats which obviously in 'our pack' won't chase, but they DON'T chase strange cats outside either....because right from being a pup they have been told NO. IMO that seemed very sensiable to me, and it is a good leaning curve in thier lives too, cats, sheeps,cows,squirrels etc., I never promote, even yesterday a couple were feeding the ducks round the lake, Skye would of loved to herd them...hitting the deck, creeping position '''NO''' and she came away. But I doubt whether she would do that if it hadn't of been taught from young.

We don't know yet if it doesn't work when the collar is off - as I haven't given him the opportunity to try. But his behaviour towards the dogs in the local park was just the same until AFTER the session with the e-collar. Since then his recall whilst distracted (chasing and playing with dogs) has been MUCH better - even withOUT the collar.

It didn't ever seem like he was going into an intense, prey-driven 'hunting' mode, but rather became over excited in his playfulness and chose not to respond to my 'keep close' command immediately. For example, if I told him to 'leave' something he had in his mouth that he shouldn't while he was hungry, and he chose not to obey because his instincts tell him not to give up his food, then that could also be seen as 'forcing him to ignore his instincts', along with many other instinctive, yet undesirable behaviours. It's more about learning self-control whilst excited and/or distracted than being forced to ignore his instincts.

I did consider it and found that there are very many NIs who have no problem with livestock. I don't think it would have become such a problem if he hadn't had his behaviour reinforced by the opportunities he's had to experience the 'fun' of it. I still believe that his behaviour comes more from over excited playfulness than an inherited 'prey drive', particularly when I compare it to the way he is around dogs in the park.

From what I am reading, it doesnt seem to matter what anyone says (all pretty much saying the same), as you are convinced that your dog has no prey drive and simply wants to play !

Other Dogs are not prey, they are pack animals, they would never be seen as prey, livestock is prey !

However, as you have a safe place to run him safely and away from sheep, this should no longer be an issue.

Good luck.

These are fair points, but his response was just to stop running, turn around and look, at which point I gave him the command to stay close again, and as he was no longer focussed on the sheep, he responded.

I understand that dogs don't necessarily show pain the same way we do, but I still never saw any signs of him being in pain. Many e-collars have a sound button on them too. If I was to use one again I don't think it would be very long before we wouldn't even need the vibrate option and could just use the sound one.

Of course this is by far the best way of doing it, and I had every intention of doing it this way from the beginning. Unfortunately once he had the opportunity to escape from the garden as a young pup (the livestock field is right next to our fence), he already had the chance to experience the thrill of chasing before I had had a chance to get his 'leave it' and recall training up to a safe enough level. The further two times he got to chase only reinforced this unwanted behaviour.

I know some of you probably think I'm TOTALLY bonkers for saying this, but I have even thought about taking him for some sheep dog training! I'm sure there are quite a few sheep dogs that wanted to just chase or play with the sheep in the very beginning.

The BCs I have known have had the herding instinct from an early age, but had nothing to do with playing with them

I say instinct, because that's very different from what people often assume is playfulness.

I'm sure moobli will be along to comment further, but I have to say the BCs I have known have herded naturally...it wasn't playing, it was obviously an instinct to herd...they may play at it a little, but it is obviously herding, think you need to see it to know what I mean as I'm not describing it very well.

Yes I see what you mean - maybe it's a stupid idea after all. I have never seen Spike do anything to suggest he has a herding instinct - not that I'd know exactly what to look for.