Everyone has different ideas about how to handle their dogs. I am of the old method. I do praise my dogs when they are good. But when they have done something which I think is inappropriate then they will get a tap. I have owned my own dogs for nearly 40 years and have never had any of them fearful of me quite the opposite. They have all been loving dogs. Just because someone handles their dogs differently doesn't mean they are bad tempered or not in control. I can put my hand on my heart and tell you all my dogs have been happy dogs and I have loved each and every one

If people think a 'tap' on the butt for a nip is ok or not I would think they would be mad to do the same for not returning, peeing by accident, chewing something by accident etc etc...

Peeing in the right place that we prefer, returning to us, not chewing certain things are things we expect from them to fit in with us and our human civilization are not naturally things they would learn by being with their mother / other dogs and even a tap in reaction to any of these things in my opinion is wrong simply cuz you would gain nothing from it, especially with returning - it's obviously gonna put the dog off coming back. Hopefully people know the differences.

Really a tap for receiving a nip isn't really worth it but to me it's not all black and white like I said and their would be times it would be a mistake and others where it's maybe not the end of the world.

People just need alot of common sense.

All dogs are individual and with mine I have learned in the last 3yrs that everything they learn has to be FUN or they switch off and stop learning so I know the way to get the best out of them - a sterner authority would have them acting depressed and uninterested in no time and I would be fighting a losing battle - where a firmer (but still not miserable!) approach may work best with others.

Not that I want to compare you too closely to my Granddad, but he's always been of the old-school and not only do I admire his training methods, but it's from him that I get my love of dogs in the first place.

If I get to the stage where I can make any dog half as happy as his many dogs, then I'll sleep well at night.

Haven't read all the posts, but have to say that I feel for 99% of us, smacking a dog is usually reactionary - it is done out of frustration or ignorance, by people who don't know (or don't want to use) any other way to rectify the problem or situation, or just want to lash out in the most basic of human motor responses.

The lessor the force, ie if it's more controlled, then the more it moves away from that - eg, tapping a dog on the nose is not in the same league as smacking it or kicking it. Perhaps it slides down the ignorance/lack of knowledge vs effort or time needed to do the same job scale in that instance?

It's one of the reasons why I am against shock collars being sold to the general public, ignorance, lack of knowledge and frustration would only lead to abuse. But in the right trained, professional hands and for extreme circumstances, it could actually help save a dogs life.

The problem is advocating a method for a dog without knowing it, I had a bitch who had several taps in her life, the first at 13 weks when she flew at me when I tried to take a piece of dangerously splintered bone away from her. I was offering other food in return but she'd have none of it. She learnt after 2 taps & never guarded or defended food from her family again. I also praised her very little as praise sent her over the top & she would do no more for you. It even reached a point when the trainer at club would say everyone but Sue praise your dog. Now my next dog would have been mortified if he'd had a slap & worked for praise & more praise. He needed it.If I'd swapped methods on those two dogs I've had had a bitch who was in total command & ruled the house & terrorised the neighbourhood & a dog who was too traumatised to do anything.
Yesterday I took Dax to a friend's house who is very loud & shouts & dramatises when she is telling you something. At first when she shouted he was startled & looked to see what she was shouting about, mind you might be a guilty concience as the first thing he'd done when he went in was eat the cat's meal, anyhow after a while he stopped reacting & took no notice.Yet a raised voice from me is all he needs to respond at once.

Smacking a dog with newspaper is, though, treating it exactly like a "naughty child"

Of course we don't usually use newspapers but we do smack - we are primates.

Dogs don't smack, not as such. Yes, they use other ways but we are not dogs, don't have their subtleties and no-one who uses a primate "smack" on a canine is thinking like a dog IMO.

If a dog growls - find out why. Then train.

To be honest if this dog was dragged around by its legs and kicked I'd think any hand attempting to pick it up was going to cause a problem!

Lindsay

Best not get into the child-minding business then Wys, if that's really your view.

We do? Who is we? Is this the assumed "we" speaking again?

I'm going to hope that you're not then making the inference that those who don't smack a canine are then thinking like a dog.

Am I right in thinking that you believe we should all be striving to think like a dog? Do you propose the same for those who own rabbits/gerbils/cats/hamsters/fish? I get the feeling that you believe all of us mortal dog-owners would be so much better if only we learned to think like a dog. If you think that you can, good luck to you. Though, how on earth you are ever going to know when you are is way beyond my simple mind.

It would certainly keep dog behaviourists in business. Something that I believe you yourself are studying?

Maybe the reason there is a need for so many dog behaviorists is that humans are trying to think like a dog and a lot of dogs are getting the upper hand. I do think that the pup in question had been treated cruelly by pulling it by the legs. The owner did not do this a 3 year old child did it. Achild of the age who probably didn't know any better until HE was trained. Until I can learn dog language and bark commands or growl I will carry on using my own methods. Which to date has worked extremly well and I might add I have never had the need for a behaviourist in 40 years.

I'm no behaviourist I'm a dog trainer & I have never hit my dogs as a "punishment"what exactly does it achieve ? Could not understand it 50 years ago when I was saving up for my first GSD & I don't understand it now !

It would appear I'm the odd person out amougst GSD people on this thread in not resorting to physically punishing dogs for my mistake or poor training

I have to say - when I've seen older/higher status dogs being bugged by younger, boisterous dogs I've always seen them raise their head away and ignore the other dog.
I've spoken to people who have had trouble training their dogs and asked what to do when they are naughty.
As soon as I describe looking away and ignoring them they say 'oh! My parents' dog does that when he's bugging her!'

Yes, I've seen dogs snap when other dogs don't get the message but they've never made contact (apart from my aunt's dog who went for Takara over some food and looked as shocked as I did when she got her).

My point is - watch another dog and they don't go straight to nipping at a dog for misbehaviour.

I also agree with jackbox - they don't see us as dogs so trying to act like dogs is pointless imo.

Whether you agree with hitting a dog or not, I'm shocked that people agree with a newspaper over the back end of a 10 week old puppy.

As for modern techniques treating dogs like children - I just can't agree with that - yes, a lot of the techniques work with both (as proven by years of scentific research) but it doesn't mean you have to treat dogs like kids. Plus, the 'new techniques' which were actually being discovered long before I realised, try to stress the fact that you can't treat a dog like you can a child in that you can't explain to a dog what he's being punished for, making punishment less effective because the dog just sees something bad coming from the person he's supposed to trust.

Sorry if that's completely garbled, I'm tired and the phone keeps ringing!