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talassie
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15-02-2011, 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by TheABCs View Post
It's far more interesting looking at it from the fact that Ian Dunbar seems happy enough being associated with CM
I was a little bemused by their partnership
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Dawes Paws
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15-02-2011, 04:35 PM
It seems dunbar is doing it knowing the book will get big publicity and so he is spreading the msg of positive training. Having just watched a YouTube Vids you cam see dunbar isn't comfortable being in the same room as him lol. He has written about it on his website.
But of course dunbar has a lot to gain from this financially too!
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TheABCs
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15-02-2011, 04:50 PM
The article Ian Dunbar writes in Dogstar Daily (or whatever it is) on his website about the collaboration seems very balanced and positive. He said he "finally agreed to be interviewed and filmed after being given full veto power over the manuscript, photos and filming" but he had actually "never had [his] words and actions presented so accurately — almost word for word". And he does admit that he was being pragmatic because of the exposure his contribution would get because CM's books end up best sellers. (And being pragmatic, no doubt, advertising for his own particular training system and thus probability of financial gain). Professional dog trainers, who are media driven, don't offer advice from altruism. They may believe in their system, and think it is of benefit to dog owners, but their main objective is to sell books, dvds, seminars, other related products and personal endorsement whether it be Ian Dunbar, Cesar Milan, Susan Garrett, or similar, to us, the consumers.
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dogdragoness
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15-02-2011, 07:45 PM
That's why I don't follow anyone because trainers both in the public eye & not will totally bash methods & those who use them that don't 'agree' with theirs.

Do I think that a dog should have a neg consequence for a nagitive behavior... yes! Does it depend on what I want to prevent... yes! Would I use [mod edit ]if I knew it was the only way I could get my dog to leave a dangerous snake alone... if it took that, yes! Its his safety on the line & I want them to asssociate snakes with something very very inpleasent.... if I had that problem. Lucky I haven't had to resort to that, as both of mine are naturally afraid of snakes.
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Crysania
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16-02-2011, 01:29 AM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
No, financial considerations are changing the way he presents what he does.
He`s still an awful man.
This is my thought as well. It's all about money. If he can get more people to watch his show, he gets more money.
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TheABCs
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16-02-2011, 09:43 AM
I think you're right, Crysiana, it IS all about money. Ian Dunbar says so himself. He's taking part in CM's book because CM books are always best sellers, according to Dunbar, so it is definitely financial considerations that have led Ian Dunbar to collaborate with CM. Quite how this will playout with ID's followers will be interesting to watch - I think he has taken a big gamble in associating himself with the person whom many of his followers see as the "enemy". CM has nobbled the opposition by not portraying them as the enemy, but saying there are all different sorts of training methods. It is a lot more difficult for ID and similar to say the same as this has been one of their selling points, the way they portray CM as a bogey man, and now they are making money from working with him on his book. Read ID's article about it in his Dogstar magazine - it is very interesting reading.
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rune
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16-02-2011, 09:46 AM
Originally Posted by Dawes Paws View Post
Yes she did and is better for it but still comes out with pack hierarchy stuff.

A little quote from his new book ;
reward based training to rehabilitate a dog is not natural.


So he still isn't getting it is he?!
I hate the man but I can sort of see where he is coming from on this. I would probably have inseted the word 'totally' though.

I think if you are rehabbing a dog/dog aggressive dog then you are often allowing other dogs to either not reward the dog (by ignoring it) or 'punishing' it by their body language and vocals. Same thing from the humans involved.

Does that make sense?


rune
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Meg
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16-02-2011, 10:51 AM
Originally Posted by TheABCs View Post
I think you're right, Crysiana, it IS all about money. Ian Dunbar says so himself. He's taking part in CM's book because CM books are always best sellers, according to Dunbar, so it is definitely financial considerations that have led Ian Dunbar to collaborate with CM. Quite how this will playout with ID's followers will be interesting to watch - I think he has taken a big gamble in associating himself with the person whom many of his followers see as the "enemy". CM has nobbled the opposition by not portraying them as the enemy, but saying there are all different sorts of training methods. It is a lot more difficult for ID and similar to say the same as this has been one of their selling points, the way they portray CM as a bogey man, and now they are making money from working with him on his book. Read ID's article about it in his Dogstar magazine - it is very interesting reading.
I don't see finical consideration as being the motivation for Ian Dunbar's connection with CM.

I read quite a bit about ID's opinion and involvement with CM a while back and I got the impressions he was reluctant to become involved and it is all about damage limitation and trying to get CM and the television watching public to realise there are better ways of training.

ID can't stop CM but he and other positive trainers can promote an alternative view. This is what ID said
Ian Dunbar .

Cesar Millan’s new book —Cesar’s Rules features a number of trainers describing a variety of reward-based dog training techniques. The book is both comprehensive and representative with chapters on history of training and learning theory (Bob Bailey), training dogs for TV and film (Mark Harden), off-leash lure/reward training (myself), gentle physical prompting (Martin Deeley), and cancer detection dogs at The Pine Street Clinic. Cesar Millan’s name and fame now showcase reward-based training techniques of other trainers to the dog-owning public. It’s kind of like a vestigial book version of Dog Star Daily’s America’s Dog Trainer.
Originally Posted by Minihaha
so what Ian is saying here is other reward based trainers are using CM name to promote reward based training
Kelly, Jamie and I gave it a lot of thought before agreeing to volunteering our time to be interviewed — weighing up the pros and cons of association versus exposure. Obviously, any book with Cesar’s name on it is destined to be a best seller, no matter what the content. Since any content is guaranteed enormous exposure, we thought, why not have reward-based training techniques get the exposure. I was very reassured to find out that my respected colleague and good buddy Bob Bailey was also involved and I finally agreed to be interviewed and filmed after being given full veto power over the manuscript, photos and filming. However, with the exception of the photo (mentioned below), veto-power was unnecessary. In all the times that I have been interviewed and filmed, I have never had my words and actions presented so accurately — almost word for word.

I have always thought, that I can do so much more good for dogs by engaging those who use dog training techniques of which I strongly disapprove, rather than simply preaching to the choir. Having read the book, I am glad that I decided to be involved. I was given free rein to say what I liked and do what I liked — an extremely unusual arrangement when dealing with television production companies. I mentioned over and over that I consider touching a dog to be an earned privilege rather than a right and that training should always be off-leash and hands-off. I have always taught people, to never touch a dog to force him to comply but rather, to touch him afterwards as a reward if that’s what he enjoys. I have always taught people to try and see the dog’s point of view and to be patient and give the dog time when resolving behavior and temperament problems.

I sincerely hope that through this book so many more dog owners will be exposed to reward-based training techniques and specifically that they will get to enjoy the rewards of reward-based training. Namely, that people learn how to proactively teach their dogs what they would like them to do, rather than providing no instruction and then feeling the need to punish their dogs for breaking rules that they didn’t even know existed.

The interview was filmed and hopefully, it will show on TV so that Hugo’s speed and Dune’s reliability can help advertise the easiest, quickest and most enjoyable way to teach off-leash verbal control — lure/reward training. Cesar lure/reward trains his dog Junior using first food (not very effective) but then a tennis ball that instantly transforms the dog into a motivated guy. Then Cesar got to work with Hugo, starting with basic luring by teaching him in Spanish.

I have only two criticisms about the book. First, I don’t like the title because I usually let owners decide on their own rules for their own dog. I consider household and lifestyle rules to be a very personal choice. However, publishers, and not authors, choose book titles and obviously they want to choose a title that will sell the book. Second, there is a really silly choice of photo in the chapter on Hands-Off Dog Training with my hands on Dune’s collar. Duh!?! It looks like I am forcibly restraining Dune from goosing Cesar. I have been assured that this photograph will be replaced after the first printing.
http://www.dogstardaily.com/blogs/my-contribution-cesar-millans-new-book
...I admire Ian Dunbar for having the good grace to collaborate with CM for the greater good of dog training , not sure I would have been so accommodating .

As for CM , I don't think he has changed, why would he when he has made success out of being what he is , a TV entertainer.
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wilbar
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16-02-2011, 10:59 AM
Thanks for posting that extract Minihaha ~ interesting reading.

I also think it's a shame about the title of the book as it almost implies that the positive techniques & reward-based training described in the book are CM's "rules" ~ which they're not, they're other trainers' "rules"!
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TheABCs
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16-02-2011, 11:06 AM
I read the article, which I thought was a very positive and frank one from Ian Dunbar. However, it seems to me that he is being pragmatic. As he states in it, Cesar Milan's books are always best sellers. Thus, it would seem to me he is basically piggybacking on CM's success in selling books to get free advertising for himself. Suggesting it is to spread the word about the methods he uses is the reason he puts forward for doing so. Surely, he can do this without involving CM, if he is so against him? That would be the principled stance, rather than using who his followers consider "the enemy" as a way of getting free publicity?

Thank you for putting the article up - I wasn't sure if it was allowed or not, but I thought it was a very good one.
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