I agree. That is why I consider some dogs to still be "dogs in training". Even successfully trained dogs, can lapse when their ongoing training ceases.

Adam, the more you write, the more I lose what very little respect remains for you, from me. Can i please ask, is there ANYTHING which you do not use an ecollar for?

He sounds an interesting dog - has he tried to kill before, or is this the impression you get of him?

It is not an easy thing to do, (it's part of the method DR uses) but it can be done, some people resort to putting their dogs in kennels or go to the seaside where there is less likelihood of something to chase (although some dogs will chase things in the air such as seagulls). A lot depends on where you live I think and how much petrol you can afford It can and has been done, but it's not easy, I agree

Here's more info, it might come in useful for understanding (eg it goes into the brain chemistry reward dogs get when chased, and how you can identify a dog who is a true predatory chaser).
http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/how-do-...y-dog-chasing/

Wys
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Interesting? I suppose you could say that He's certainly taught me a lot! He's gone beyond trying to kill, he's killed several times in the years I've had him. One cat that jumped out of a tree at him, god knows how many rats (apartment block was infested) and other small animals and he used to grab pigeons out of the air. Given how quick and confident he's always been at it I'd say he'd killed before I got him. I have absolutely no doubts he'd kill again given the opportunity.

Thanks for the link. I've tried something very similar with a toy but have never been able to get beyond the garden with it, as soon as we leave the garden he's constantly scanning the environment, I think partly for something to chase and partly in fear of being attacked as that's happened so many times. He relaxes on the field and is aware of us again but has zero interest in the toy and would much rather sniff around, roll and run about. Even at home he loses interest in toys very quickly though so I guess he's simply not hooked on it enough. I'm not sure how to get him more interested though as I did what that article says.

If it helps, I am a realist, I had a dog that was into feather and fur and killed several animals (of different types), tried with a few others and was not exactly fond of people.

There are some cases that will never lose this desire and a ball to them would be like waving a sprout in front of me.

So, do not beat yourself up and think that plenty of other people could do better, trust me, I have yet to see this in the very few animals of this type (whatever people might say or whatever it says in some books).

If you need any reassurance get Jean Donaldson's book I think it is the Dogs are from Neptune one.......... for a pragmatic view of certain issues...........

Big sprout fan I see But yeah, that's pretty much the impression I get from Rupe when I offer him a toy or even a piece of chicken while out. Sort of a "you really expect me to want that??" sort of thing.

I'll have to look for that book, another one to add to my collection of books I've bought since getting Problem Dog

All I'm saying is if the dog changed ownership and wasn't working to the new owners commands I would advise them to run through the training again (v briefly) to get the dog back on track.

I don't have a problem with it.

Adam

I think with dogs who have a real life experience of prey drive satisfaction they tend to understand the diff between toys and prey, certainly some dogs can be more motivated by real looking prey (rabbit skin dragged through grass ect). But mostly they understand its just a poor substitute.
With these dogs I will generally use release command as the major reinforcer in training (premack princple) as this allows them to think/hope that they will gte the opportunity for that real drive satisfaction again.

Adam

Sounds as if he's adept at what he likes to do
I've had dogs in the past who have chased and killed squirrels (very cleanly, horrid yet amazing to watch and at that time I had not enough control over them to prevent it).
One of my dogs also leapt on the back of a forest pony (long story, the pony was safe and bucked him off, I learnt a bit more about dogs and resolved to find out more about training!).
Looking back, I know those particular dogs would have responded to the sort of training I do now, in spite of what I witnessed. Not saying necessarily that yours or all others would, I prefer to speak only from my own experience here.

I wouldn't presume to say that you could solve this, chasing is never easy and sometimes it's just best to use management/control as you are clearly doing . DR solves around 96 per cent of his cases using his methods, without any aversive, and then the remaining 4 per cent he uses the specially conditioned spray collar aversive (using taste aversion as previously discussed either in this thread or another, can't recall now). He has worked with difficult dogs including a husky who killed sheep. (and for Adam, there have been dogs who were trained with shock collars but their training did not work and the dogs still chased). Also interestingly he's had dogs who have had problems with their brains which caused them to chase. Just goes to show that you never always know what is going on with dogs.

Sometimes it can be better to just kind of accept what you have and love 'em for their own character etc. which you clearly do anyway! I agree with the advice not to beat yourself up, don't do that, you have a dog who is clearly not an easy one when it comes to chasing.

Wys
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That suggests he has 100% success on chasing problems with training, including going to the extent of using emetics to condition aversion with a spray collar, without needing to be resigned to using management for those that do not respond to training alone, or maybe he is including successful management strategies as a success, rather than just successful training.

In some of these cases the problem may be reduced, without being totally eradicated which may be considered a success, in so much as it is not a failure

People unsurprisingly advertise their successes, not their less successful experiences, but I do not know anyone else who achieves 100% in these cases on training alone, to the point that management and keeping the dog on lead in high risk situations is never needed. Even with apparent successes there is also always the risk of relapse at a future date.

I do know of at least a couple who have claimed 100% success in their methods when they had a certain agenda, and admitted to less that 100% at other times, to different audiences, with comments that some dogs will always need to be kept on leads around their preferred chase targets.

Even the behaviourist who had the licence for a certain brand of spray collars at one time, and who admitted using emetics, did not claim 100%, as there will always be dogs for whom the thrill of the chase, with or without prey capture, will outweigh any aversive.

Some studies have shown a high degree of success with electric collars with chase and recall problems, but as with any other methods, the studies do not show them to be infallible, as to some dogs the intrinsic reward of predatory chasing will outweigh any aversive, even emetics and spray or electric collars.

Emetics are not 100% for creating aversions in animals and indeed those humans who habitually binge drink with subsequence vomiting, or who continue to drink despite antabuse treatment, demonstrate that emetics will not always dissuade the most determined individuals, even when they recognise the connection.

As with the potential side effects of using electric collars there are also behavioural (and medical risks, particularly if the dog doesn't vomit) risks with using emetics including negative associations with other elements in the environment and the risk of handling aversion or handler aversion.

Maybe in a very few cases the cure is sometimes riskier than managing the problem!