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labradork
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Location: West Sussex
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12-05-2009, 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by Pidge View Post
Sorry, PMs all deleted now. I think you need to re-send Liz and Elaine?

Dorky, I'm going to look into DAP as Pat suggested, so thanks ;o)
Some interesting stuff on it:

The behavioural effects of dog appeasing pheromone (DAP) continuously administered over a 7-day period, were evaluated in adult dogs housed in a public animal shelter. Barking amplitude (dB) and the frequency of discrete behavioural responses to two temperament tests associated with fear, separation and excitable behaviour (Arrowsmith, unpublished data) were recorded in 37 treatment and 17 control dogs. Mean barking amplitude (Leq) and barking frequency were significantly reduced in dogs subject to DAP exposure for 7 days (P < 0.001, <0.04, respectively), though peak values (Lpeak) were not significantly altered. There was also some reduction in the barking amplitude of dogs during the 1 min recovery period, following a distraction. Following 7 days of DAP exposure, there were significant differences in resting (P = 0.03), barking (P < 0.04) and sniffing frequency (P = 0.01) in response to a friendly stranger. There were no highly significant differences in response to a neutral stranger. The preliminary tests indicate that DAP is a useful palliative tool for reducing some behavioural indicators of stress in dogs. Further tests are necessary to investigate the use of DAP in canine stress reduction in conjunction with traditional behavioural therapy programmes.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...efef1208e97ff1

The behaviour and emotional state of 15 dogs, known to be fearful of the veterinary clinic was evaluated during a standardised 5 min waiting room procedure and standardised 2 min consultation room procedure prior to a sham clinical examination, in the presence of Dog Appeasing Pheromone and placebo. Subjects acted as their own controls and were semi-randomly allocated into treatment groups to control for order effects. A triple blinding procedure was used in order to remove bias from the assessment of video recordings of the dogs, with two naïve independent raters used to analyse the video recordings of the behaviour of dogs during the test procedures. The raters showed good, and similar, agreement in their evaluation of both the specific behaviour of the dogs and their putative emotional state (relaxed, aroused and anxious). The results suggested that the use of DAP in the clinic was associated with greater relaxation of the dogs but there was no effect on aggressive behaviour during the clinical examination.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...7fb796cf89b8f2
Jackie
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12-05-2009, 08:12 PM
Pidge, I am glad you have no intention of going down the route of having Woody PTS.. but from your earlier posts it seemed like you where or had been told it might be your only option.

Referring to your

now it needs to get bad before it gets better but I almost felt today that even the behaviourists are losing hope and the pts is an option we have to prepare for!! I just cannot cope with that thought
Along with you saying he will be not suitable for re-homing.

I think from the replies to your post, you have a unanimous response in saying Most of Woodys issues are normal puppy behaviour... I know you dont agree , but you need to trust those who have been in the position of raising puppies before you, and as with ALL dog s being individuals they will all be different.. but in unionism.. you have got the same feed back

They are time consuming.. having a puppy ANY puppy is equal to having a baby/toddler/child... and like children you will get degrees of activity .... Woody is equal to a toddler who never sleeps , is always on the go... one who constantly tests his limits


What we are trying to get across to you , is the fact that the chewing / barking /defiance are all Normal behaviour..

Unexpectable behaviour , yes !!! but normal none the less.

You have an 8 mth old pup... equal to a 5 yr old child, a child who is defiant, one who throws tantrums in the supermarket, one who wont go to bed, and as often happens.. one who once taken an inch will steal a mile.. and sometimes these tantrums escalate into the child , biting/scratching and hitting their parents in temper.

Woody is this Child, his behaviour has escalated to an unacceptable level.

Dogs suss things out very quickly, the first time he wanted something and he was allowed to win that something.. he has rewarded himself... i.e I have something, I growl, they leave me with it... which builds to him food /toy guarding, he knows if he growls , you back off. he wins, he will do the same again.. and as is happening , you are becoming increasingly weary of him.. which sets you on a vicious circle.

Having the vet check him out.. will at least put some of your worries to rest..at least you will know that what you are dealing with is medical or behavioural.

I would also suggest that you speak to Woodys breeders, did you not say they live in the village, and I would expect, being they are responsible breeders will want to know what problems you are having...

You can aslo ask them if they have has any inherent behavioural problems with their dogs or know of any in their dogs lines.. this way (again) will help you get to grips with his behaviour.


taking a breath and a glass of wine or two sounds a good idea.

I think Ramble said it best... concentrate on the good , not the negative.


Start tomorrow, with a clean sheet, look at him as a new 8 wk old pup..

Write down what you want from him. what you find acceptable and what you dont.

Forget all that has gone before , and see him without any baggage. change his routine, keep him guessing

i would aslo like someone suggested get him of the puppy food, and onto a good low protein no additive food.

Do you know about NILF , have you practiced it with him

If not I would start tomorrow.


I am sure you are determined enough to work through this.. but you do need to take a positve view... tomorrow is a new day, and all that.
Pidge
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12-05-2009, 08:14 PM
That is interesting. I am running EVERYTHING by our lil helpers though first just to be sure to keep consistency but sounds great.

If I was a betting man I would put a lot of cash on there being a dietary issue here (as well as other things). I feel confident that (provided he is otherwise healthy) changing his food will make a huge difference!!
labradork
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12-05-2009, 08:16 PM
What are you switching to? Arden Grange?
mishflynn
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12-05-2009, 08:17 PM
Ive given you advise previously on Food & attitude, so i wont rewrite those again.

With the biting, does he warn first or just jump in with no warning?

Do you back off?

What do you do if he bites?

What do you do if he growls?
Pidge
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12-05-2009, 08:18 PM
Originally Posted by Jackbox View Post
Pidge, I am glad you have no intention of going down the route of having Woody PTS.. but from your earlier posts it seemed like you where or had been told it might be your only option.

Referring to your



Along with you saying he will be not suitable for re-homing.

I think from the replies to your post, you have a unanimous response in saying Most of Woodys issues are normal puppy behaviour... I know you dont agree , but you need to trust those who have been in the position of raising puppies before you, and as with ALL dog s being individuals they will all be different.. but in unionism.. you have got the same feed back

They are time consuming.. having a puppy ANY puppy is equal to having a baby/toddler/child... and like children you will get degrees of activity .... Woody is equal to a toddler who never sleeps , is always on the go... one who constantly tests his limits


What we are trying to get across to you , is the fact that the chewing / barking /defiance are all Normal behaviour..

Unexpectable behaviour , yes !!! but normal none the less.

You have an 8 mth old pup... equal to a 5 yr old child, a child who is defiant, one who throws tantrums in the supermarket, one who wont go to bed, and as often happens.. one who once taken an inch will steal a mile.. and sometimes these tantrums escalate into the child , biting/scratching and hitting their parents in temper.

Woody is this Child, his behaviour has escalated to an unacceptable level.

Dogs suss things out very quickly, the first time he wanted something and he was allowed to win that something.. he has rewarded himself... i.e I have something, I growl, they leave me with it... which builds to him food /toy guarding, he knows if he growls , you back off. he wins, he will do the same again.. and as is happening , you are becoming increasingly weary of him.. which sets you on a vicious circle.

Having the vet check him out.. will at least put some of your worries to rest..at least you will know that what you are dealing with is medical or behavioural.

I would also suggest that you speak to Woodys breeders, did you not say they live in the village, and I would expect, being they are responsible breeders will want to know what problems you are having...

You can aslo ask them if they have has any inherent behavioural problems with their dogs or know of any in their dogs lines.. this way (again) will help you get to grips with his behaviour.


taking a breath and a glass of wine or two sounds a good idea.

I think Ramble said it best... concentrate on the good , not the negative.


Start tomorrow, with a clean sheet, look at him as a new 8 wk old pup..

Write down what you want from him. what you find acceptable and what you dont.

Forget all that has gone before , and see him without any baggage. change his routine, keep him guessing

i would aslo like someone suggested get him of the puppy food, and onto a good low protein no additive food.

Do you know about NILF , have you practiced it with him

If not I would start tomorrow.


I am sure you are determined enough to work through this.. but you do need to take a positve view... tomorrow is a new day, and all that.
Yes, to it all.

Except NILF, what is that?

Also, do we all agree this is best food for him? Thoughts if you don't mind peeps but this is what I've chosen - http://www.ardengrange.com/Pet-Food/...ypicalAnalysis
Pidge
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12-05-2009, 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by mishflynn View Post
Ive given you advise previously on Food & attitude, so i wont rewrite those again.

With the biting, does he warn first or just jump in with no warning? Sometimes he warns, other time he just does it.

Do you back off? If he bites yes, we pull away and make a loud noise, looking sternly at him

What do you do if he bites? See above

What do you do if he growls?
Say ''no'' and carry on. Then he bites.

Obviously all of this depnds on the circumstances but see bold.
Jackie
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12-05-2009, 08:23 PM
http://www.pets.ca/articles/article-dog_nilf.htm

NILF..nothing in life is free.

I would suggest you have a good read tonight, and start working on it first thing in the morning..

Basically Woody has to earn every single priveligde he gets, that includes you talking to him/petting him/ feeding in/beofre he goes for a walk, before he get a toy (although I would leave that for a while)


And yes AG is a good food...also look at healthy Paws.. (I feed this)

http://www.healthypaws.co.uk/

Burns is another good one....all can ge got on line
JanieM
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12-05-2009, 08:24 PM
Haven't really got anything to add other than I know exactly what you're going through and it's sound like you are dealing with it better than I think you give yourself credit for.
Woody sounds like a lucky boy to have a mum so determined to sort things out and you should be applauded for that.
Jackie
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12-05-2009, 08:26 PM
Originally Posted by Pidge View Post
Say ''no'' and carry on. Then he bites.

Obviously all of this depnds on the circumstances but see bold.
In what situations does he bite/

Is there a build up to it

Try and give a typical example
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