but why even include docked into it? it isnt natural...

this thread isnt about dew claws, its about tail docking. there was a thread not so long ago about dew claws, and i said my point in that. dew claw removal is something i am against though, jake has them on his front legs, and i would never remove them unless i had a justified reason to.

As lozzi said I haven't mentioned dew claws as this is a thread on docking. Stan hasn't had anything removed, he's all natural lol.
As for breed standard, that is only what has been decided by people, if the original breed standard was the way the dogs were born naturally then that is what you would now be adhering to. Its only because way back someone had the bright(or not so) opinion to cut tails off and it became breed standard. Now people are realising its not necessary and to many, cruel, that it is slowly changing. It is the arrogance of the human race that we seem to think we have the right to change things. We are priveliged that dogs love and tolerate us and personally I feel that unless it is for health reasons we have no reason to chop bits off!!! May be that sounds stupid to some but thats what I think.

And if it had not been you would not have had a Boxer in your home now.

If we had just left things to nature , we would have NO breeds, at all.


So the argument of leaving things to nature , would be lost.

Thank you for finally answered my question on Stan's Dew claws...

By the way, Stan, along with most other breeds are not "as nature intended, they have been genetically engineered over time by man to what we see to day in the "individual breeds"

If we had just left it to nature, we would have no breeds!!!

Yes sorry I took so long answering your dew claw question but I did have other things to do!!! We would have different dogs yes and not defined breeds but man has always had dogs in his life and always will whether these are manufactured ones or not. I love dogs in general and whether I have a boxer or cross breed is not really relevant, I would have a dog. The fact that I chose a boxer is because I live in this society and make choices from it. I liked the personality of the boxer, that was my main reason for choosing the breed. I choose not to advocate docking because I believe it to be un necessary and cruel. If you don't then that is your choice. I have kept my dog as natural as I can, I have not changed him artificially, breed standard and history have done that. You are right that Stan is not entirely as nature has intended because of past breeding, all I am saying is that I personally have not done anything to alter him anymore.
This was always going to be a heated discussion due to strong feeling on both sides. I don't want to get mardy about it and believe everyone is entitled to their own opinions and I have voiced mine.

very well said!

but there is a big difference between dogs being breed to specially look one way, and dogs that are born and then changed... as far as i am concerned, how they are born is the natural way.

i disagree that without the breed standard there would be no breeds

as soon as humans settled dogs developed types based on what jobs they had
dogs still have jobs and people will still breed the best dogs for that job with the best bitches for that job
sure there would also be lots of x breeds as companion animals too but i am sure they would develop types depending on peoples preference

its a mute point cos breed standards exist, but, there were breeds before standards and there will be breeds after the standards are gone. it would be nice if the peoplemaking the standards had a lot more common sense tho and the people breeding and judging all were more interested in health than cookey cutter looks

Breed standards exist because humans are naturally competitive and vain and want to be the best. We are all like it in some way or the other. So, people started to compete with their dogs to see whose was the “best” or the “nicest” and which one looked closest to what someone else thought it should. Hence the development of breed standards. If you didn’t have a breed standard then how could a show judge, judge? What benchmark would she or he use? It does not mean that there cannot be change. The recent BBC programme highlighted some issues and breed owners are in the ideal place to let their concerns be known and seek for change where needed for the good of the breed.