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Lotsadogs
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29-07-2010, 11:52 AM
Originally Posted by Crysania View Post


NO NO NO NO NO. NO. Absolutely NO.

I take it you disagree with Adam then?
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Crysania
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29-07-2010, 11:54 AM
Originally Posted by Lotsadogs View Post

I take it you disagree with Adam then?
Now whatever gave you that idea?
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Meg
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29-07-2010, 11:56 AM
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
I'm not sure why you write that given that I clearly stated that the electric fence was painful.
Michael see your original post...
Originally Posted by MichaelM
I have myself experienced what is effectively an electric shock in the following ways:

1) From touching an electric fence.
2)Touching faulty electrical equipment/equipment that hadn't been earthed correctly.
3)Physio (e-stim ???).
4) Putting a battery across my tongue (I was young ).

Of those, only the electric fence was painful. Of the others, the sensation/stimulus, or electric shock if you prefer, varied from a tickling feel to a mild vibrating. In principle, it is possible to deliver what is correctly termed an electric shock that isn't painful
... out of a list of things, you only found one to be painful.
I went on to elaborate that some things one person may not consider to be the cause of pain can cause pain in others, I thought my post made the point quite clearly.
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Lotsadogs
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29-07-2010, 11:59 AM
Originally Posted by Minihaha View Post
I was going to make the same point about pain tolerance Chrysania, I am quite surprised Michael is so unaffected by painful sensations .

I have had a number of extremely painful electric shocks including one from an electric fence. I have also used a TENS unit for pain control and found it very uncomfortable likewise acupuncture, I only managed one session on a painful hand after which I had difficulty driving home because of the pain caused by the treatment. No doubt other mammals including dogs have differing responses to various levels of pain too.

With regard to TENS units which I have seen compared to e collars, the instructions state..


It also states..

Also some areas of the body are of course more sensitive to pain than others which is why I am so shocked anyone like the 'person' (I use the term loosely) referred to in my previous post, see link below
http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php...30#post1999530
... would ever consider putting an e collar near a dogs genitals, an action which was lightly dismissed by Adam Palmer saying the 'dog was probably being trained to sit' http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php...03#post1999903

Regardless of the pain issue, as I have said many times I think the use of e collars is unnecessary and could result in other behavioural problems affecting the dogs on which they are used.
Dogs like humans, can have radically different responses to pain. All of my dogs have had shocks from electric fences at one time or another. Each of them has responded to such an experience very very differently.

One of them then refused to walk near ANY fence be it wire or wood for about three years after the experience.

Oddly, my youngest, the dog in many ways I would describe as the least assertive and most naturally nervy, responded with a minor yelp and the whole thing was fogotten in about 3 seconds. He has since walked into a fence with the same response - he still remains unaffected by electric fences and I am quite sure he will one day walk into another having learnt nothing.

I think that the reaction of different dogs to the same stimus is not always well considered, among ecollar users.

I am quite sure that had anyone put an ecollar on the first dog I described above, she would have had a complete breakdown.
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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29-07-2010, 12:02 PM
With an abused dog I would see it as my duty as a member of the race who hurt him in the past to build up his confidence that the world is now safe and I am an amazing place to be

My dogs stick around with me because they want too - not because they are too scared to go anywhere else.

One last time I ask you to consider a simple point adam

If the training is negative reinforcment and the removal of the 'stim' is so great as to be much more powerful than hardwired pleasures like eating and chasing
Then dosent it have to be the case that the 'stim' has to be fairly negative for the dog - a mild annoyance dosent provide such amazing releif when it is removed
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Crysania
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29-07-2010, 12:05 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post
My dogs stick around with me because they want too - not because they are too scared to go anywhere else.
I think this is an important distinction and a very important point. When I call my dog to me, she comes because she wants to, because she knows I'm the giver of all good things, including food, treats, belly rubs, and ear and butt scritches. She knows that being with me is awesome and she runs to me with joy on her face.

I never ever want a dog to come to me because the alternative is scary and painful. I never want to see a dog running to me looking nervous about what might happen if they don't come to me.
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Meg
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29-07-2010, 12:10 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
People and dogs have different levels of sensitivity to physical stimulus (including electric) this is why e collars have numerouse levels, so the more sensitive dog works on a lower level than the less sensitive dog. What they feel is the same.

With e collar training your using negative reinforcment. For an aboused dog who was fearful of people you would NR the dog when it came towards you, the dog would then see you as a place were aversives didn't occur (in the past it would believe and experience the opposite) this counter conditions the dog to feel comfortable with you.

Adam
Adam how can you possibly know what a dog is feeling are you that dog ?

You can try to justify your own use of e collars and hide behind phraseology all you like but you don't fool anyone here, what it boils down to is you choose to use pain and cruelty to train dogs.
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MichaelM
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29-07-2010, 12:14 PM
Argh. I've subscribed again.


Originally Posted by Minihaha View Post
Michael see your original post...
... out of a list of things, you only found one to be painful.
I went on to elaborate that some things one person may not consider to be the cause of pain can cause pain in others, I thought my post made the point quite clearly.
I also pointed out that the TENS could be turned up to a painful level (if used incorrectly).
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Adam P
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29-07-2010, 12:15 PM
Lotsadogs
Your example illsutrates my point about dogs with different sensitiveitys to physical stimuli. You older dog is clearly very sensitive while your younger less so. With an e collar you would simply vary the level to suit either dog.

BM
I don't use collars to blast dogs off a chase (for example) I use them to stop the unwnated behaviour just above threshold, the dog is far elss stimulated by this so you still use the lowest levels.
I believe the collars are so effective because
a, the stim is controled by the dogs behaviour
b, the stim is continuose, so while the dog si performing the wrong behaviour it experiences stim, while performing the right behaviour it doesn't. This is far mroe communicative than a quick reward/punishment.
c, the stim is an alien stimulus and is always felt in the same way (doesn't get different the further off the dog is ect). This makes it consitent.
With an abused dog I see it as my role to show the dog that humans are comfortable and safe place to be. The taining I have discussed does this.
I personaly don't think much of this idea of lettign the dog coem round in its own time, that just means the dog is scared for longer.

Adam
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MichaelM
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29-07-2010, 12:16 PM
unsubscribe.
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