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MichaelM
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09-04-2010, 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
Most people Introduce themselves first!


I think you'll find Your Introductions to be the relevant section for that.
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Emma
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10-04-2010, 04:55 AM
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
I believe that those seeking (those who sought in Wales) to have the E-collar banned are (though well intentioned) doing a disservice to dogs welfare. If I was being cynical, I'd suggest that in supporting this ban, both the KC and the RSPCA are doing nothing more than using it as a smoke screen to cover their own failings.
The Accredited Breeder Scheme is ludicrous (Caroline Kisco's inbreeding),
Nothing noted on the site, is this just advertising for you??

As for Accredited Breeder Scheme, not the point of the debate, maybe start a new thread


Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
and there's the issue of the RSPCA regarding bolting of the GSD's.
http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=111715
that topic is again seperate, if you click on the above page given, maybe discuss that there, as again not the issue on this thread

Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
Dog fighting is alive and well, and Camarthenshire is known for it's puppy farms - these two issues are of much greater harm to dog welfare, but are more difficult to eliminate.
Are you saying dogs that have been deprived of basic needs and attention, you would then want to give them negative punishment on top of trying to get them to be trained!!!!!!!!!!!

Puppy farms are banned, now e-collars are in Wales, both good things. People still have free will to break the law, but it gives the authorities a chance of reducing or stopping puppy farms, THAT IS A GOOD THING, you can't stop inhumane treatment though as people are willing to flaunt the law and do it anyway. BUT NOW THE AUTHORITIES CAN ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING = GOOD THING

As for dog fighting, another topic but they are treated with pain to increase their aggression, a shock collar would do nothing except have no other alternative that to the dogs pts which is often the case anyway!!


Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
Listening to those against the collar (e.g. the Kennel Club's Sian Edwards), the implication is that the collars are used as a first choice method of routine training - no one is advocating this.
It is not about using them as a first choice method, it is a matter of using them at all, if you go back and read the thread, you will find Adam Palmer, has been quizzed to his using of them, and he does use them as a first choice method as he sees the dogs he deals with as needed 'quick retraining' and to keep his customers happy and thinks they are a good training method, so I couldn't give a toss to what the wording is, it is how they are used by people with dogs on a daily basis and since shock collars are painful stimuli, it is only to cause pain and it is only up the the users discretion to how much pain they decide to use.

I have seen them used and when the owner got frustrated he turned it up only scaring the poor dog even more and getting no results except a nevervous wreck of a dog, and if you think this person as not a great animal person, I would like to say this person had trained animals of all sorts for all his life and should have known better.

So take them away and if you can't train a dog without it, it is a failing on the human side not the dogs and to think you can suppress a dogs instinct that has be in a breed for hundreds if not thousands of years is foolish and a time bomb waiting to happen by believing an e-collar will fix it!


Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
When the puppy farms have been closed down, and dog fighting has been stopped, when line breeding (close inbreeding) is no longer acceptable, and owners aren't buying pups then letting them go because they're too big/wife is pregnant/making too much mess etc etc (take a look at free-ads to find a ny number of reasons), maybe then would have been the time to look at e-collars.
There are many issues with dog ownership that are not what we would like, I suggest you search around Dogsey a bit more and you will find they are all here (the ones you have mentioned) but to say 'oh e-collars, why that topic' it has to start somewhere, dog fighting is banned so that is off the list, puppy farming is illegal so that is off the list, people still do it and it is disgusting, but it is against the law and to educate people on how not to encourage these practices, is the best everyday people can do on a forum.
Back to the site shown
-The Electronic Collar Manufacturers' Association said it feared the ban could lead to an influx of unmanageable pets into dog shelters.
- The RSPCA said it believed there was no place for shock collars in modern animal training and recommended the use of reward-based methods instead.
- Kennel Club members staged a display of support outside the Senedd in Cardiff Bay before the vote.
- But manufacturers said the devices helped to successfully train dogs not to chase livestock, or attack other pets or people.
Duncan McNair, of the Electronic Collar Manufacturers' Association, said: "It's a bad idea because more dogs will die, more dogs will have to be re-homed and more owners will have to be distressed at having to give up their pets."
-but what I do think is that if a large number of people who use them stop using them, there will be an influx of dogs into dog shelters."


All those quotes are from the site, notice anything?? The only objection is from companies and associations that exist because they make or support these things?? Odd -

The last quote is 'I think' not it is or here are the facts. Wales is not the first country to ban or limit the use, where are the stats to back it up then?? Just Electronic Collar Manufacturers' Association worried as they won't exist if they are banned. So please have a good hard think about it.


Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
In my opinion, the wrong fight has been picked to promote animal welfare. It's made the headlines, but it's a hollow victory, and both the RSPCA and the KC have been gifted a cloak to hide behind.
It is not the only fight being promoted, if you go through this site I would have a good look and you will see not all think the RSPCA or KC are what they make out to be, so possibly you are preaching to the wrong people. But don't for one minute think that banning e- collars is a bad idea IMO
People still have free will and laws don't change that, people can see dogs as throw away items, think puppy farming is a good way to make money, dog fighting worth doing, it is not the law that is wrong but the people using free will to harm animals that they have little regard for

Oh and welcome to Dogsey maybe have a look around before deciding what Dogsey is all about and topics discussed
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Wysiwyg
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10-04-2010, 06:43 AM
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
I previously posted this on another forum, but the topic was locked and we weren't allowed to discuss it - hence my being here. Nothing like a controversial topic to get started with.......
You are here only to promote shock collars, not for any other reason?

I believe that those seeking (those who sought in Wales) to have the E-collar banned are (though well intentioned) doing a disservice to dogs welfare. If I was being cynical, I'd suggest that in supporting this ban, both the KC and the RSPCA are doing nothing more than using it as a smoke screen to cover their own failings.
Presume you think the various veterinary, training, behaviour and other animal welfare organisations (WSPA) are doing it for the same reason?

Listening to those against the collar (e.g. the Kennel Club's Sian Edwards), the implication is that the collars are used as a first choice method of routine training - no one is advocating this.
Oh yes they are!

Sadly many who use ecollars are using them as a first choice, the tool is the tool of their trade.

That is one of my main concerns. Shock collars are recommended for BASIC training.... to teach Sit, Recall, Down, etc...

I have seen videos that show shock collar users using them to teach dog dancing, and also dog agility (needless to say, this is in the US).
AND they are recommended for crib biting horses and also, cats


Wys
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Wysiwyg
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10-04-2010, 06:51 AM
From another public forum:

...she had sapped the spaniel (who was just playing with its ball) and the look on the dogs face said it all, I felt physically sick watching this dog go from happy go lucky yes a bit nutty to sitting shaking...

That is also sadly the reality of how some use shock collars

Another reason so many feel they do need to be banned. It's not about anything but passion for animal welfare, especially dog welfare, and a strong desire to see shock collars a thing of the past.

Wys
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Meg
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10-04-2010, 07:47 AM
Originally Posted by MichaelM
If I was being cynical, I'd suggest that in supporting this ban, both the KC and the RSPCA are doing nothing more than using it as a smoke screen to cover their own failings.
Michael if I was being cynical I'd suggest those promoting the use of collars were doing so because they had something to gain financially or lacked the experience to use other training methods and were looking for 'a quick fix'. We used to have 'an odd couple' of e collar salesman who suddenly appeared as if by magic every time e collars were mentioned , they seemed to have absolutely no interest in canine welfare only selling e collars and used discussions about training dogs as a smoke screen to sell their goods and cover their own failings.

I hope the KC and the RSPCA get a move on and help to speed a ban on e collars in the whole of the UK.
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rune
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10-04-2010, 07:55 AM
Originally Posted by Minihaha View Post
Michael if I was being cynical I'd suggest those promoting the use of collars were doing because they had something to gain financially or lacked the experience to use other training methods. We used to have 'an odd couple' of e collar salesman who suddenly appeared as if by magic every time e collars were mentioned , they seemed to have absolutely no interest in canine welfare only selling e collars and used discussions about training dogs as a smoke screen to sell their goods and cover their own failings.

I hope the KC and the RSPCA get a move on and help to speed a ban on e collars in the whole of the UK.
Well AP lacks the experience, he is 24 and has been doing a degree----which gives him all of 3 years working---if that!

rune
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ClaireandDaisy
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10-04-2010, 11:50 AM
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
I think you'll find Your Introductions to be the relevant section for that.
Ah - another person who`s out to make friends and influence people - not. How remiss of me to overlook your entrance.
So when you say you only joined to give us your two pennorth on training with pain, it wasn`t quite the full story?
Why do you support the use of punishment based training methods?
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MichaelM
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10-04-2010, 01:17 PM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
Ah - another person who`s out to make friends and influence people - not. How remiss of me to overlook your entrance.
Maybe if you hadn't been in such a rush to jump down my throat for daring to hold a differing opinion to your own, you'd have noticed that it wasn't quite my first post.

Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
So when you say you only joined to give us your two pennorth on training with pain, it wasn`t quite the full story?
Why do you support the use of punishment based training methods?
I didn't say I'd only just joined - my join date is there for you to see, neither have I promoted training with pain.

Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
Why do you support the use of punishment based training methods?
I haven't said anything of the sort, but it's an accusation you seem to frequently make against those who don't agree with you.

I've laid out my argument as to why I don't think the ban is a good idea - in response you've accused me of not having the decency to introduce myself, and you've tried to put words in my mouth. If you'd like to engage in mature debate on the matter, let me know.
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MichaelM
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10-04-2010, 01:25 PM
Originally Posted by Minihaha View Post
Michael if I was being cynical I'd suggest those promoting the use of collars were doing so because they had something to gain financially or lacked the experience to use other training methods and were looking for 'a quick fix'. We used to have 'an odd couple' of e collar salesman who suddenly appeared as if by magic every time e collars were mentioned , they seemed to have absolutely no interest in canine welfare only selling e collars and used discussions about training dogs as a smoke screen to sell their goods and cover their own failings.

I hope the KC and the RSPCA get a move on and help to speed a ban on e collars in the whole of the UK.
I'm not promoting them, I'm arguing that the ban isn't necessarily a good thing for the reasons I've laid out.
Suddenly appeared? my join date is there, though I was more of a lurker - we were unable to discuss this topic on "my" previous forum, and it wasn't half as lively as here.

I hope the KC and the RSPCA sort out the bigger issues first and stop using this ban as a flagship of achievement.
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MichaelM
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10-04-2010, 01:28 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
You are here only to promote shock collars, not for any other reason?
In a similar manner to Claire, you seem to jump in with this accusation against anyone not sharing your opinion.

If you too would like to engage in mature debate on the matter let me know.
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