register for free
View our sister sites
Our sister sites
Our sister sites
Our sister sites
Meg
Supervisor
Meg is offline  
Location: Dogsey and Worcestershire
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 49,481
Female  Diamond Supporter 
 
07-04-2010, 09:50 AM
Originally Posted by Adam
Shona, I think it has widened the training issues for meand certainly made solving the problems easier.

Without e collars I would still try but wouldn't be as sure of my success (within time frames)
Adam when I choose to have a dog the last thing on my mind is making things easier for myself at the expense of the dog , if people want a pet and an easy life they would be better getting a hamster as a pet not a dog. One can never be 100% sure of success when training dogs or how long it will take to train one they are all different . As far as I am concerned there shouldn't be any 'time frames', dog training is about patience and consistency and above all not using methods which cause pain/fear or could result in other behavioural problems down the line.

Anyone who who has worked with rescue dogs with an unknown history will tell you some dogs may appear not to have any behavioural problem but may suddenly react unpredictably sometimes with extreme fear or agression . This unpredictable behaviour is in many instances almost certainly caused by the dog associating a particular set of external stimuli with previous experiences.
I have seen this kind of think happen many times and think it may well be the cause of some apparently unprovoked dog attacks.

So in addition to my not wishing to use a device which to my way of thinking caused a dog unnecessary pain I am unable to understand how you can possibly know whether or not your using an e collar may or may not result in a dog having behavioural problems related to the use of the collar sometime in the future, to ascertain this you would need to be with the dog for the rest of its life.
Reply With Quote
wilbar
Dogsey Veteran
wilbar is offline  
Location: West Sussex UK
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,044
Female 
 
07-04-2010, 09:50 AM
Originally Posted by Emma View Post
I couldn't imagine using it on myself or another person (no matter the temptation). Mind you think we could start a new diet 'The E Collar diet think we could make some money
Seriously I have had static shocks, they hurt, shocked by electric fence, it hurt, had a small electrical shock from a toaster, it hurt. Electric shocks hurt no matter the degree used IMO
Yes it does have a certain ring about it ~ you've tried the Atkins Diet, now try the Ecollar Diet. Maybe the sadistic person administering the shock will turn it up a bit more everytime you stray towards that cream cake!!

I've had a shock from an electric fence too, so I know how my dog felt when he got caught ~ it hurts! But even worse was the complete startle factor ~ it certainly made my heart race for a while!
Reply With Quote
Emma
Dogsey Veteran
Emma is offline  
Location: Australia
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,032
Female 
 
07-04-2010, 02:03 PM
Originally Posted by wilbar View Post
Yes it does have a certain ring about it ~ you've tried the Atkins Diet, now try the Ecollar Diet. Maybe the sadistic person administering the shock will turn it up a bit more everytime you stray towards that cream cake!!

I've had a shock from an electric fence too, so I know how my dog felt when he got caught ~ it hurts! But even worse was the complete startle factor ~ it certainly made my heart race for a while!
I guess the diet would involve testing it first to see what level you react to, and then just zap you even if you look at the cream cake, and continue to do so until you shake with fear when ever a cream cake is in sight.
Also we could go into the child care business, not only do we take care of them for the day we can e-collar them every time they have an unwanted behaviour?!
The startle factor is a big one when it comes to the shock that you get, all you look at is where you got the zap and the resonating pain felt afterwards.
Reply With Quote
Emma
Dogsey Veteran
Emma is offline  
Location: Australia
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,032
Female 
 
07-04-2010, 02:10 PM
Originally Posted by Krusewalker View Post
i think adam is referring to the cortisol based study from:
Clinical signs caused by the use of electric training collars on dogs in everyday life, E. Schalke, Department of Animal Welfare and Behaviour, Veterinary School of Hannover, Buenteweg 2, 30559 Hannover, Germany

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...ae9bf2495fd8db

http://www.appliedanimalbehaviour.co...382-0/abstract
What is your take on E-collars KW if you don't mind me asking??
One study is not sufficient grounds to make a decision one way or the other, as for reading the full study, I am not paying for the privilege.
I noticed there were two negative groups that responded badly to the e-collar, only the group that touched the toy rabbit then e-collared were positive outcomes.
I am guessing that touching the toy rabbit is more than an eye movement that Adam e-collars dogs to reprimand them for. Eye movement is hardly the same as actually touching a sheep
Which leads me to believe there is a fundamental flaw is the positive group in the study, as they did a specific action that was significant enough for them to register, eye movement IMO is a movement that would be harder to distinguish for a dog as a trigger for the e-collar to be used for and the dog being able to understand the reason the painful sensation was received.
Reply With Quote
Adam P
Almost a Veteran
Adam P is offline  
Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,497
Male 
 
07-04-2010, 09:20 PM
Emma

It's accurate because you stop the sensation the moment the dog's behaviour changes, that is negative reinforcment.

It's also accurate because you start the sensation the moment the dog does the undesirable behaviour, that is positive punishment.

If/when changing brands you simply take a few secs to find the dogs first level on the new collar.

Discomfort and pain are imo different. If my arms in bright sunlight and too hot that's uncomfortable and I move my arm (negative reinformeent) if my arms in a fire I also move my arm but that's painful (also negative reinforcment). The e collar sensation is the equivilant of the former not the latter.

Wyswig

If it's painful there not trained in the same way I'm training.

You may not believe the -r with the ellies is the same as with the e collar but I do.
Both use a mildly uncomfortable sensation on the neck which the animal seeks to avoid. Just because one is a hand and the other is electrical stimulus doesn't mean the animal percieves them as different. The ellies have to work out how to avoid the hand stimulus as well. My training involves lots or pr.
Working the dog for a long time is only productive if the dog is engaged with the training for that time. Because e collars are a mild motivator this makes it possible. Similarly you can work a dog with pr for a long time. If your using an extreme motivator you will have to be carful you don't exhuast the dogs drive for that motivator (toys) but it can work.
Unless circumstances force it I don't work dogs for a long time. OFTEN I will train for 10 mins, explain to the owner for5 mins then repeat.

Wilbar

Your correct any aversive will use both positive punishment and negative reinforcement. But any appetite reinforcer (reward) with use negative punishment and positive reinforcment.
While you keep refering to e collars as causing pain and fear I know they do not.
Yes the method is trial and error learning but die to the use of the lead (or any guidance) and the very accvurate nature of e collars the learning is fast. This makes it less stressfull than other types of learning which maybe slower as the dog experiences less frustration while learning.

If they are banned, more dogs will be pts, more will be rehomes, and more will have a poor quality of life. This will lead to increased behaviour problems and increased anti dog feeling (as a result of the behaviour problems). This could lead to increased restrictions on dog ownership.

Wilbar/Wyswig

Re conscience, fortunatly I've researched the subject and have practical experience of it. Therefore using on does not effect my conscience or princples at all. In fact it works with both by improving the dogs life.

Personnal experience

1ST thing I did when buying one was feel all the different stims, I've also done the whole way you suggest with all the different levels at random times (so not training just friends shocking me lol) unpleasent but not relative to how I train, I've also had somene do a version of the shaping game with an e collar to me. Not stressful at all.

CAD
I've been trainign far longer than I knew about e collars (or cared) I've achieved good results without but choose to use them as their the most appopriate tool for some dogs.

Sibevibe

If you don't research on the modern use of the tool (which is my approach) you can't really compare it with your original research. The equivilant of comparing beating a dog with a lead and using a chest harness spring to mind.

The dogs you've met were obviously not trained well with it.
Having met dogs who've been abused in other ways (with leads ect) I can honestly say I don't see the point in rejecting e collars because of bad useage.
I have worked with a few bad abuse cases and helped them with an e collar!

Emma
Electric at a low level does not hurt! Turn it down low enough and you won't feel it. Most people can't feel the lowest levels on the collars I use and comment that their first level of sensation feels like a tingle.

Minihaha
Sometimes people can not take the time it takes to achieve a result, The gsd and malamute are good examples. Patience is great but improving the dog and owner's lives is important.
I keep in touch with my clients and they comment the dog continues to improve/remain good with no negative issues.
In the usa (were e collars are very popular) there should (if it were true) be lots of evidence for behavioural problems with e collars. The reality is there isn't and many usa organisations support them.

Adam
Reply With Quote
SibeVibe
Almost a Veteran
SibeVibe is offline  
Location: Ayrshire, Scotland
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,367
Female 
 
07-04-2010, 10:01 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Sibevibe

If you don't research on the modern use of the tool (which is my approach) you can't really compare it with your original research. The equivilant of comparing beating a dog with a lead and using a chest harness spring to mind.

The dogs you've met were obviously not trained well with it.
Having met dogs who've been abused in other ways (with leads ect) I can honestly say I don't see the point in rejecting e collars because of bad useage.
I have worked with a few bad abuse cases and helped them with an e collar!

Adam
My point exactly Adam. Too many of them, different trainers, all doing it wrong.

I'm only 40 Adam, give us a break. I stopped reading them recently

Take care.

Seoniad.
Reply With Quote
ClaireandDaisy
Dogsey Veteran
ClaireandDaisy is offline  
Location: Essex, UK
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 14,147
Female 
 
08-04-2010, 07:35 AM
You`ve given abused dogs electric shocks?

Merciful Heaven.

Mods - is there any way I can get hold of this person`s details so I can report him to the RSPCA.
Reply With Quote
rune
Dogsey Veteran
rune is offline  
Location: cornwall uk
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,132
Female 
 
08-04-2010, 08:03 AM
It gets worse.

AP---how old are you? Youth and inexperience is the only real excuse for this, and that isn't a good one.

Serious question BTW----you seem to have missed answering it before.

Just to start you off I am 57 and have trained many breeds of dogs with many methods but have learnt much better methods in the last 15 years than were ever used before. Including the e collars some working trials people I knew used!

rune
Reply With Quote
Tupacs2legs
Dogsey Veteran
Tupacs2legs is offline  
Location: london.uk
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 8,012
Female 
 
08-04-2010, 08:36 AM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Emma

It's accurate because you stop the sensation the moment the dog's behaviour changes, that is negative reinforcment.

It's also accurate because you start the sensation the moment the dog does the undesirable behaviour, that is positive punishment.

If/when changing brands you simply take a few secs to find the dogs first level on the new collar.

Discomfort and pain are imo different. If my arms in bright sunlight and too hot that's uncomfortable and I move my arm (negative reinformeent) if my arms in a fire I also move my arm but that's painful (also negative reinforcment). The e collar sensation is the equivilant of the former not the latter.

Wyswig

If it's painful there not trained in the same way I'm training.

You may not believe the -r with the ellies is the same as with the e collar but I do.
Both use a mildly uncomfortable sensation on the neck which the animal seeks to avoid. Just because one is a hand and the other is electrical stimulus doesn't mean the animal percieves them as different. The ellies have to work out how to avoid the hand stimulus as well. My training involves lots or pr.
Working the dog for a long time is only productive if the dog is engaged with the training for that time. Because e collars are a mild motivator this makes it possible. Similarly you can work a dog with pr for a long time. If your using an extreme motivator you will have to be carful you don't exhuast the dogs drive for that motivator (toys) but it can work.
Unless circumstances force it I don't work dogs for a long time. OFTEN I will train for 10 mins, explain to the owner for5 mins then repeat.

Wilbar

Your correct any aversive will use both positive punishment and negative reinforcement. But any appetite reinforcer (reward) with use negative punishment and positive reinforcment.
While you keep refering to e collars as causing pain and fear I know they do not.
Yes the method is trial and error learning but die to the use of the lead (or any guidance) and the very accvurate nature of e collars the learning is fast. This makes it less stressfull than other types of learning which maybe slower as the dog experiences less frustration while learning.

If they are banned, more dogs will be pts, more will be rehomes, and more will have a poor quality of life. This will lead to increased behaviour problems and increased anti dog feeling (as a result of the behaviour problems). This could lead to increased restrictions on dog ownership.

Wilbar/Wyswig

Re conscience, fortunatly I've researched the subject and have practical experience of it. Therefore using on does not effect my conscience or princples at all. In fact it works with both by improving the dogs life.

Personnal experience

1ST thing I did when buying one was feel all the different stims, I've also done the whole way you suggest with all the different levels at random times (so not training just friends shocking me lol) unpleasent but not relative to how I train, I've also had somene do a version of the shaping game with an e collar to me. Not stressful at all.

CAD
I've been trainign far longer than I knew about e collars (or cared) I've achieved good results without but choose to use them as their the most appopriate tool for some dogs.

Sibevibe

If you don't research on the modern use of the tool (which is my approach) you can't really compare it with your original research. The equivilant of comparing beating a dog with a lead and using a chest harness spring to mind.

The dogs you've met were obviously not trained well with it.
Having met dogs who've been abused in other ways (with leads ect) I can honestly say I don't see the point in rejecting e collars because of bad useage.
I have worked with a few bad abuse cases and helped them with an e collar!

Emma
Electric at a low level does not hurt! Turn it down low enough and you won't feel it. Most people can't feel the lowest levels on the collars I use and comment that their first level of sensation feels like a tingle.

Minihaha
Sometimes people can not take the time it takes to achieve a result, The gsd and malamute are good examples. Patience is great but improving the dog and owner's lives is important.
I keep in touch with my clients and they comment the dog continues to improve/remain good with no negative issues.
In the usa (were e collars are very popular) there should (if it were true) be lots of evidence for behavioural problems with e collars. The reality is there isn't and many usa organisations support them.

Adam
have you and the mals owners not heard of a lead?
Reply With Quote
Adam P
Almost a Veteran
Adam P is offline  
Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,497
Male 
 
08-04-2010, 12:50 PM
Rune, I'm 24

CAD, Dogs were much happier after the training.

Tupac, he was on a lead when he broke loose and got the first 2. He was contained in the house when he slipped and got the 3rd. HE wasn't let off (outside of an enclosed area, which they recently lost the use of) at all until I became involved. He now is and is very much happier.

Adam
Reply With Quote
Reply
Page 21 of 77 « First < 11 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 31 71 > Last »


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools


© Copyright 2016, Dogsey   Contact Us - Dogsey - Top Contact us | Archive | Privacy | Terms of use | Top