Gnasher - you very much can faze out titbits - infact when I am clicker training my problem often is Ben spitting out or gulping down his treat in his desire to do the next trick

All the things you describe are just people not understanding how to use treats
One of the biggest problems is not using enough to start with and phasing them out wrong

Say for a sit - people do a couple of repititions think the dogs has got it then just try and stop using treats - the dog then learns when the owner dosent have a treat in their hand they dont get one

basically to phase it out make sure the dog really knows and enjoys the behaviour, ask for it and give a reward, ask for it with an empty hand, give a reward, randomly give rewards 70% of the time, then 50% then 10% - but make it random and for the best performances
If the dog dosent think it will never get a reward but it may sometimes get a reward then it is exciting as gambling is for humans, they will try harder in the hope - even if 75% of the time you dont even have treats with you

and the great thing about using more than just treats is if you dont have treats with you and your dog does something amazing then you have plenty more rewards to offer them

But everyone at an agility show is running without treats - even tho most of them have trained with treats
same with HWtM and most obedience nowadays
It is jsut a myth that the dog wont work if you dont have treats

also its a myth that the dog will be mugging you for treats - they only mug you if they learn they can get a treat that way - I can train my dogs with a plate of chicken on the floor and they dont try and get the chicken cos they know mugging = no chicken, doing good work = lots of chicken

Thanx Ben for explaining. I feel better now about giving the boys their tittybitty in the mornings! I certainly can put plates down on the floor for them to lick before putting them in the dishwasher (plates, not the dogs!) and make them sit and stay for as long as I choose.

see you do train with treats

Y-e-e-r-s-h !! OK, yes I do, but I don't believe in carrying them around with me because one day I know I will forget them, and then I'll be in trouble because my boys would never forgive me, it would undo everything I had gained thus far!

That's an odd way of looking at it.

There is no need to use food ALL the time.

My dogs do not work as well for praise because I do use it ALL the time, therefore their reactions are not as good if I am rewarding them with the boring, everyday, get it when I want, fuss.

They will do things, but not 'well'. (Probably well enough for general everyday stuff, but not the reaction time I want from them)

Removing a training aid will not 'Undo' all the work you have done so far....I am not going down the unmentionable route - but, if that were the case, you would have already undone all the work you have done by removing your other training aids.
Think about it logically

Good point Tassle. That which shall not be named is no longer used, there is no need for it, so I get your point - my point though about training with treats in the case of my dogs is my own shortcomings ... I would invariably leave the dang things at home, and my boys are very switched on, they would take great offence if something didn't happen that normally did if you get my drift. They are extremely sensitive and all the good would be undone that had previously been done because they would read that as being their fault, they had done something wrong, so today they were not getting any treats.

....hmm.....methinks you miss the point about 'how' to train using food rewards.

Not all gundogs are trained in the old school way!

Mine are trained with "treats" (which may or may not be food depending on the dog and what is getting trained at the time), as already mentioned it's the dog who decides what is worth working for!

They don't spit out game (so far haha!), as the process was back chained from holding it in position first, before retrieving was even started. They do spit out tennis balls right between your feet though (who wants to hold a wet muddy tennis ball?).

Mine could not care less about vocal and physical praise, unless like Tass said it's for something they already do and know well, and in a low-distraction environment, in which case, imo, it's just another go of the old owner "slot machine" they are gambling with everyday.

As for playing tug ruining their soft mouths, Jet LOVES a game of tug of war, with us and with his brother, yet here's Jet retrieving a live duck, not a feather out of place and released completely unharmed. There's that old wives tale oot the window!!!

No, I haven't, I just know it won't work ... with ME being the problem, not my dogs!!

If you train correctly you DO NOT need to offer a treat every time. In fact most of us phase out the treats pretty quickly.

The dog does not get all "sensitive" over the lack of treats, nor are they able to judge that they have done some kind of wrong.