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Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,723
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06-02-2011, 01:36 PM
Originally Posted by Lizzy23 
But isn't this another example of dogs evolving to fit modern needs, there isn't as much call for collies to be herding sheep and jack russels to be ratting as we have other ways of doing it in modern times, so isn't flyball or agility just another job?
Mixing two different breeds like this can give you a total mix of looks and abilities in the puppies
Of course the plan in making this cross is to make a smaller collie shaped dog with the best speed drive and courage from both breeds
In reality you can end up with a collie size body and jrt legs (seen a few of them) a jrt sized dog or a collie sized dog or anything in between
and personality wise you could end up with the collies brains and cunning and the terriors headstrong stubberness - and reactiity and agression from both breeds
Breeding and buying a dog only for a hobby is wrong imo - even with the best breeding a dog may turn out unable to do agility - then what? The dog is cast aside just because he cant perform a hobby?
In agility the bond and training is as important as anything else, many rescues and crossbreeds do great at agility
- its about doing something together with your dog that you both love, if you inderstand each other well you can train to overcome your failings
For most people if you buy a dog and focus only on training it to win at agility - you will fail
If you get a dog, train it to be a great pet, do lots of fun things with it and play agility with the same joy as playing fetch - you will suceed
Originally Posted by Jackbox
I would have said the worse was the little crossbreed.
Good conformation is extremely important to the health of a dog, as it is for any animal, if the confirmation is not right then it can trigger of a domino effect through out the skeletal system.
A dog with flat feet can effect other joints, the wrist joint and so on it goes,
Cow hocked , bowed legs, weak hips , will all impact on other joints,
For breeds such as the spaniel that is expected to work tirelessly on a days shoot, having bowed /deformed front legs is only going to put excess strain on other joints, and strain on joints sets off arthritis, you dont have to have a degree in genetics to understand that.
Being in horses for many yrs, when looking for a competition animal, looking at conformation is extremely important, you are not going to buy a horse with cow hocks , fallen pasterns if you want something to perform with the least amount of stress on his joints.
its one of the first things you look at,t he conformation of the horse, you want something that its conformation is going to support the rest of his body, from the feet upwards, a fallen pastern will put pressure on the Fetlock, which may put pressure on the hock,
You want something that has good construction that gives support and balance to whats sitting on top of it. hence giving the animal the best "shock absorbers" to work as he should.
The same goes for dogs, deformed front legs gives the dog ahead start to problems with arthritis and other joint problems.
Of cause arthritis , can b ea result of trauma, but when a dogs conformation is wrong, you are upping the anti to problems over one that is structurally correct.
Yet so many pedigree dogs are a long way away from that - many breeds are only the shape they are because of the deformaties that have been bred into them
I agree with what Dawn is saying tho that a breeder of working dogs should always be looking at the long term health of the dogs bred
(same for any breeder)
But imo that stands as well for pedigree breeders, with our carefull selection improved food and vet attention our dogs should be vastly outliving their wild cousins
The fact that some breeds dont even make it into double figures is heartbreaking
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Location: uk
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 18,552
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06-02-2011, 01:41 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs
yes that is true - but in that case isnt the healthiest conformation for a dog to be is that of a wolf?
Yet so many pedigree dogs are a long way away from that - many breeds are only the shape they are because of the deformaties that have been bred into them
I agree with what Dawn is saying tho that a breeder of working dogs should always be looking at the long term health of the dogs bred
(same for any breeder)
But imo that stands as well for pedigree breeders, with our carefull selection improved food and vet attention our dogs should be vastly outliving their wild cousins
The fact that some breeds dont even make it into double figures is heartbreaking
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Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,723
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06-02-2011, 02:12 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn
You would think so wouldnt you, but sadly genetic abnormalities are creeping in now in captive collections. The Wolves at Whipsnade have very badly undershot mouthes, not all but definitely a few and what would appear to be the alpha male too.
Seems us humans are pretty rubbish at understanding how to breed animals
Hope it can be helped!
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Location: uk
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 18,552
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06-02-2011, 02:27 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs
That is a shame, not surprising really
Seems us humans are pretty rubbish at understanding how to breed animals
Hope it can be helped!
This is a couple from Whipsnade. Im pretty sure the Wolf on the left is the alpha male. You can clearly see the undershot jaw.
http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/a...psnade/050.jpg
This is a female, Im pretty sure she has a bad mouth too.
http://www.rsobb.co.uk/Imagery/IMG_0181-2.jpg
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Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,723
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06-02-2011, 03:50 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn
I expect its the inbreeding within the Zoos. Not the idea of conserving a species is it?
This is a couple from Whipsnade. Im pretty sure the Wolf on the left is the alpha male. You can clearly see the undershot jaw.
http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/a...psnade/050.jpg
This is a female, Im pretty sure she has a bad mouth too.
http://www.rsobb.co.uk/Imagery/IMG_0181-2.jpg
That is terrible and just makes a mockery of all the good work some zoo's do
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Location: UK
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,891
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06-02-2011, 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by Ramble
JH made a mistake and has admitted the mistake. Don't we all?
I find it really interesting that many people who accuse her of not being balanced in her arguments are doing just the same.
She clearly states she knows nothing about some breeds, CCs being one..But knew enough to do an article about what goes on in the breed - yep that figures mind you like I said before she talks out her arss..
All writers are interested in, is themselves nothing more, people taking piccies and writing articles on celebs - dont care about their feelings - I really dont see that JH feels much different. If she got her facts straight before opening her foul mouth people may feel she had a place in the dog world to help and do some good... But she doesnt do facts.. I wonder why!
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Location: Stockton on Tees
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,005
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06-02-2011, 07:20 PM
Originally Posted by Moobli
Can only speak for border collies, but the ISDS collie has never been bred to the KC breed standard.
Also, what is wrong with the standard which makes dogs bred to it undesirable for working?
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Location: Wiltshire, UK
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,374
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06-02-2011, 07:28 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn
Oh dear. They breed from ANYTHING that works, dismissing the construction faults. Dont you get that? Springers, working bred, in many cases have deformed, bowed front legs, out at the elbow and worse than any Bulldog you will ever find. Many of these dogs go on to develop horrible arthritis because of the deformities that have been ignored because while it was young it could pick up a pheasant!
I thought you would have knew what I meant with the mouthes. Ive seen many poorly bred "working" type Springers who are undershot. Not marginally, very much so. But still ignored if the dog can pick up, which is why I find it wrong to breed solely for the working ability, which is what most working people do.
Originally Posted by Lizzy23
i'm getting really bored of this all working springers have deformed front legs, i have 6 here at the moment the only one who has deformed front legs is Fudge, who has a weird bone growth going off, i was also out with around 40 other Working springers yesterday, and again i didn't notice any that had legs sticking out at the elbows, this deformity must be a southern thing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Because it must be right Dawn says so!
However, one thing I do wish is that breeders of working springers would concentrate on the temperament as an equal match to health. There are far too many schizo Springers in rescue lately. A very sad story.
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Location: Herefordshire, UK
Joined: Feb 2007
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& CAN'T WAIT!!!!
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Location: cornwall uk
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,132
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06-02-2011, 07:47 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs
Oh dear I see what you mean, they just arnt right are they?
That is terrible and just makes a mockery of all the good work some zoo's do
rune
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