I agree with you in a way Johan - I know we disagree on the use of ecollars etc but that aside ...

However, whilst "correction" and scolding can stop a behaviour, they aren't efficient ways in teaching a dog what you do actually want it to do. Personally I don't "correct" a dog whilst I am training it. If the dog is not learning, or forgets, or whatever, I consider that to be my fault and I sort it out. I have just started using training diaries and find them really useful for monitoring/teaching more advanced training.

I'd use a vocal "ahah" said sharply if a dog was doing something dangerous or nicking food off my plate (for example) but also tend to monitor the environment. Emergency situations might also require a fairly serious action but that's something apart from actual training.

Also, positive training doesnt mean "permissive" - done well it gets the job done.

But a vocal ahah or ach as I say is a correction

Hi, I would say its not the sound or the word so much but how its applied. If done harshly / angrily, yes its a negative but if done simply to get attention in a way which gets the dog to happily look to you, then thats a distraction rather than a correction - they are completely different things :smt001

Reprimanded for what exactly ?
Lets say its a recall thing.

Dog runs off, owner calls the dog, the dog does not respond quickly enough, owner reacts negatively.
Next time the dog runs off, he heads for a road, owner calls dog, dog thinks, ` after last time do you think I`m coming back to you in a hurry ?`
Next thing dog is in the road and gets hit.

Alternatively,

Owner has the common sense and patience to work on recall with a long line [ and harness ], praises the dog every time he comes back no matter how long that takes, and the dog starts responding quicker and quicker because getting to the owner means a reward of praise / cuddles etc. Once consistant, the owner continues working on recall in a safe area with dog off lead. Once the dog is responding well enough to be trusted in other areas, something happens which spooks the dog and he starts running. Handler calls the dog and because the dog associates the owner with praise and confidence, his desire to run to his owner surpasses whatever spooked him so he turns round and heads back fast, long before he would have reached the road.

I know which scenario and end result I prefer for my own dogs...

As I have never spoken to my dog in anger I fail to see the distinction, I still see it as a correction. Maybe that's why we should not be so quick to judge others use of words.

The distinction is in how the dog perceives it, [ which is where it matters ] - in the way you describe its a distraction with no negative `vibe` which is just how it should be

[ I got that impression in your previous post which is why I gave the two distinctions, I had the feeling your useage was not of the negatively intended [ to the dog ], variety :smt001

Can't answer for anyone else but for me that would always be the 2nd option. Recall is the one thing that is non negotiable for me. My 2 have fantastic recall and we practise it constantly and have done from day 1. They both turn in an instant whatever the distraction.

so that's 2 things we agree on then.

I used to have a beautiful Dobie girl many years ago, so thats 3 we agree on

Lets say food refusal for one...

There is one thing that i notice daily. Where i live now there are lots off dogs-dogowners. The 2 types are represented those who work their dogs and those who have them as pets. Without exception you can see from far which type off dogowner is comming towards you with his dog. If he's off leash and listens well it's a working dog; be it a ringdog like mine or a retriever for hunting. Those dogs are well trained, well mannered, well nourished etc. If on the other hand you see someone comming towards you with an overfed dog that is pulling like hell, and lunches towards you etc you know it is a petdog. Other thing early in the morning you only see workingdogs and unshaven/unwashed workingdogowners with sleepy eyes walking thier dogs.

Strange

Greetings

Johan

Just to be a smart @rse

Well where I live I see a third type of owner, those that that have a working dog but it's also a pet. In my area I dont know of any working ring dogs, so the majority we'll say are gundogs.


These dogs sometimes pull on the lead but still work on a shoot say once a month and have a bloody good recall, but they are a combination of the two So I guess that makes them a working pet ?

I've been to a few shoots and I can assure you not all pure working gundogs dont pull on the lead or always come back

ETA : I've also seen a load more pets (and I mean purely pets) that are a lot better behaved than the ones you have described