Now what makes you think I dislike the KC Becky.

The KC does not set a breed standards......theyset down the information ALL breed council gives them

There are hundreds of breeds out their, all having different standard,,,,they KC in not an expert on any of them,

I think Becky, Denis is singing from the same hymn sheet as you.... you have both said it is not the KC who sets a standard.

I think what Denis is saying is, how can the KC set something down, That even a breed council has not decided on yet.

In Boxers, there is a standard for the undocked tail... although it has never been necessary for the UK to pay much attention to.

So the same will have to apply now to Rotties, the councils of all docked breeds will need to look to see what fits and what doesn't

In Boxers, you don't want a tail to thick, to thin, hairy, whippety and so on, it should slightly curl up and over the back whan on the move,

Same goes for Rotties, they will sat a standard. for all to adhere to.

Beauty they say in the eye of the beholder & perhaps the judge is the only one who knows why he/she placed the dog with a tail. No one unless they have physically handled the dog can criticize the judge, unless the dog was lame, shy, nasty etc which can be seen from a distance.

I know someone who won CC's with a Dobermann bitch that had a movement fault that was visible from outside of the ring. However the judges that placed her must have seen something in the other bitches present that they considered a worst fault, which of course is their right.

In the UK there are no disqualifying faults as there are in other countries & the judges are required to place the dogs in order of merit against the breed standard which they interpret as correct.

I'm going to a GSD breed show(a Ch Show I think)& none of the dogs there I know would ever get placed under me for a whole myriad of reasons-starting with temperament & movement. How do I know this because of the society holding the show. Now lots of people on here would think the dogs are wonderful & fit the breed standard to a T, but that is their opinion not mine.(BTW I'm only going because there is Obedience at the show)

Just because you disagree with the judges decision doesn't always mean you are right especially if there are none of the obvious faults(movement, temp etc) The structure/quality of a dog even in a smooth coated breed isn't always obvious from the ring side

Actually the KC approve (or not!) the breed standards and/or any alterations sent to them by the breed clubs. They do not just accept anything that comes from the breed clubs. They can choose not to include something or not to accept any changes if they so wish.

It seems I have to, once again , point out that Denis said that the KC have never had the tail set in their standards which is simply untrue. EVERY BREED STANDARD has the tail set mentioned and has had for many many years! Rotties, as well as any other docked breed, should have the correct tail set - docked or not! But if certain breeders have been ignoring it due to the breed not having a full tail coming off it then that's their problem isn't it! They should breed with every bit of the standard in mind. A dog with the correct tail set is more likely to have the correct tail carriage - whatever that may be. It stands to reason that no standard would call for a high set tail and want a low tail carriage on the move! It's really not rocket science!

What he has said in his posts re: tail set is factually incorrect. It's not my fault he doesn't know tail set from tail carriage is it People need to use the correct terminology because tail set and tail carriage are two completely different things!

Debs

In my breed we reckon it will take 10-15 to sort out the tail carriage. Although most are set correctly some puppies are brin with a break in there tail which would previously not mattered but now it will. A lot of the older breeders are saying they might not bother breeding again as it will take too long to breed the correct tail carriage and some of them wont make it in there life time.
The other problem in you can see the tail set and know its correct but its hard to gague what a correct tail carriage is on a young puppy as were just not used to seeeing them,

Blimey I can't believe people aren't going to put in the effort for just one part of the dog because they may not be around to see the end result. What they fail to realiseis that the more people breeding with the same goal in mind the quicker it will be achieved!
Becky

I really don't understand this. I do understand that correct tail set is more likely (but not a guarantee) to produce correct tail carriage but 10 - 15 years when the majority of puppies have the correct tail set already? I just can't see it. And why do all those puppies have broken tails??!!! I take it if it's worth mentioning there has to be a fair few of them?! Has no-one wondered why before now? Surely that's a major health issue which should have been investigated long before the docking ban was ever even thought of!

Debs

Sorry I probably used the wrong terminology by broken I meant with a kink in the tail. With regards to breeding if I was in my late 60's - 70's and I had to start developing my line again due to faults in the tail I'm not sure I'd bother. Also we have a few health related problems on the breed and we have a great shortage of decent stud dogs at the moment. Three of the most used dogs are in veteran and one is 12 years old too be honest tails are the tip of the iceberg but its still going to be a major problem and I can see it taking a lot of good dogs and bitches out of the breeding equation.

Do they get more kinked tails than in any other non-docked breed then? It's something other breeders have had to be mindful of since they started. My 10 year old Pharaoh bitch has a kink in her tail. Didn't stop her winning CCs well into double figures and two Ch show groups plus many group placings. She was (and still is ) outstanding in every other way. It's just another part of the dog to be judged against the standard. If I had an outstanding dog in front me with a kink in it's tail and the rest of the class were average I know which one I'd put up.

Debs

I think it's very sad that some breeders would consider stopping breeding or changing breeds just because they can no longer dock. To me there is so much more to my dogs than their tails. And yes, i do have a customarily docked breed.

In Sweden certainly in the first year there was a major drop in registrations of traditionally docked breeds, in fact Giant Schanuzers had no registrations at all for 12 months, however, the numbers have crept back up as people have kept breeding the dogs they love regardless of the fact they now have a tail.

However, unlike other breeds when our mother country stopped docking around 15 years ago several exhibitors in the UK also stopped docking, and since then more and more have stopped. Prior to the ban coming in only a handful of breeders continued the practice.

This was done because the majority of breeders wanted to see how the tails would come out, and bear in mind we have a breed in which you can have everything from a full spitz curl, a longer stump, a proper bob, or in fact nothing there at all (invert).

When the KC asked the breed club to come up with an alternative tail clause for the standard - about 3 years ago - it was debated long and hard and in the end decided that we would word it to say basically so long as the set is correct anything goes with the tail carriage - whilst it took a while for the KC to accept this they did eventually.

Yes there will be a period of a few years where the tails sort themselves out, but what is say 5 years in terms of dog showing and breeding? In terms of the history of your breed?

As to dogs with tails not winning over dogs with, or dogs with tails not being as good, this too hasn't stood up. The first vallhund fully tailed Ch was made up about 4 years ago, and the second at this year - this dog has also gone on to be placed in the pastoral group at Working & Pastoral Breeds of Scotland, in 2003 a fully tailed vall puppy won the pastoral puppy group at a champ show - it can be done and people can see past the fact that there is a tail.

Kate