Breeding to standard or to what the judges are pulling - which?

Hi all,
Just wondered what your thoughts are on this,i have been on the phone to a very good close friend tonight and the subject of showing and breeding came up.
He said alot of his breed that his is shown are nothing like the standard set out but what the judges like.
He said that some of the bitches going through are awful,and some of the dogs should be in bitches classes,but i pointed out it works both ways if that is what the judges are pulling then that is what most breeders will breed.
In my opinion all judges need to be familar with the standard for the breed and judge to it not what they like.
Sal

Can't really discuss this Nissan as I don't know anything about showing or breeding, but all I can tell you is, I once showed my very small gsd (only for fun) but she was judged by a very highly respected aged gsd judge, and when I said to her I thought she was too small framed as I liked the bigger boned dogs, she told me she would always favour a small one as those are the ones she preferred. So what does that mean then? She would obviously favour what she preferred and not the standard?

In my opinion ALL judges should judge to the standard and ALL breeders wishing to breed for any reason should endeavour to breed to the standard. Proper confirmation leads to sound movement, essential to any dog if injury and future aches and pains are to be avoided, whether they are working dogs or pets. Exaggeration of any feature to suit a "fashion" can lead to health problems eventually and .....is simply not fair to dogs.

Dogs that have been shown under me have not been perfect when compared to the standard, very few are close in fact, so the placings will be a matter of assessing the relative faults and coming to a compromise. Within a breed standard there will be also be preferences between judges. If you have two dogs of equal merit and one is bigger built, but still meets the standard in that respect, you have to split them on some basis. Two dogs under a succession of judges on different days will produce different results.

It fills me with horror and dismay to think that breeders may breed a type to "suit what judges want" unless this is to the standard. If a judge wants a "big" type, for example, at what cost is this to the other aspects that make the dog up? Give me a "small" type with beautiful confirmation and movement that shows it's socks off and I give you a winner over a larger dog with a straight shoulder and a bad tail set. But that's just me.......

Judges, like everyone who are really interested in their breed, read the standard and interpret it to the best of their ability, but this interpretation will inevitably be coloured but the dogs these judges has owned, seen and judged. Judges are, believe it or not, human and like all other human kind some are good and some are bad, some competent some not, some honest and some not. Really bad judges do not continue to get entries nor do those who are blatantly dishonest.

It is a sad fact that a judge can’t bring with them the exhibits they are expected to judge, they have to judge what is bought in front of them and they have to sort them into an order of merit. Now it does sometimes happen, even at Championship shows that the dogs bought before the judge are not good examples of the standard, but they still have to be judged and most judges will look for the good rather than the faults and place the sound dog in front of the one that is unsound, and the not to bad in front of the awful, providing the dog look something like the breed it is supposed to be, it may be placed. In the UK only unfit or aggressive dogs can be sent from the ring un-judged.

Now if the breed is going through a period when dogs are not good examples of the breed standard it stands to reason that dogs and bitches that are not what the judge would like to see are bought before them to be judged, and as I have said they have to judge what is in front of them and from that selection however bad they have to select a best of breed. Now it is true that the judge could withhold both places and CC’s but a BOB has to be declared and it is a very brave judge that would withhold from 50 or 60 % of the exhibits there, most do not have that sort of confidence knowing as most do that you are learning all the time, what if they withheld unfairly. If as the person who instigated this discussion suggested all the bitches are not good examples it stands to reason that some will be awarded top prizes, as there is no choice for the judge, they have to declare from the rubbish, or otherwise, they have in front of them.

Sorry didn't mean to cause offense,but you have raised some interesting points that i never thought of.
Sal

Did not cause me offence, only get cross when someone says all judges are dishonest then the feathers fly, I may not be a competent judge but I am honest and I do my humble best

I'm sure that you do it's a pity there arn't more like you.

Sorry this statement doesn't make a lot of sense to me at all it is assuming all Judges 'like the same dogs' in other words interpret the standard in exactly the same way and give equal importance to the same virtues and faults when this is not the case. Judges are individuals and each will have their own fractionally different interpretation of the standard 'putting up' the dogs that in their opinion give the closest approximation to the breed standard.

Let me give you an example, there are few absolutely perfect dogs, a Judge is faced with three almost perfect dogs each with a slightly different fault, one is a little straight in shoulder, one has long hocks, the third has a slight sway back. The first two have faults that affect the dogs movement the third is more an overall appearance thing, who is to say which fault is the worst? The Judges who put confirmation first may exclude the first two faults, the Judge who goes for overall appearance may forgive one of the first two but not the third so who is to say who is right?

Many breed standards are very complex and there are a multitude of permutations of slight fault, unless all Judges withhold all prizes until a perfect dog comes along they have to excuse the odd small fault and each Judge will have his own preferences.

If a person chooses to exhibit under a particular Judge I think they should have the good grace to accept that Judges decision without complaint remembering if their dog has many good points it may win another time under a different judge. No Judge can please all competitors because someone always has to lose .

Have never seen a perfect example of the breed standard and I doubt a perfect dog has ever been born. Judges are not ask to find a perfect dog they are asked to find the best and expected to place 5/7 of the rest of a class in order. If the breed has nothing but dogs having bad faults then a dog with a bad fault will be placed.
I think most are they do their best in an honest manner. Judges being people are as varied as the rest of the population, most breed judges will be competent, studied there breed, owned their breed be respected by their fellow owners of that breed, will have done their best to understand the standard and interpret it is a way that is relevant to the breeds function and are honest. However some will not be, like the rest of the population there will be those who are laze, inefficient, inadequate, unfit and dishonest, such is life. Have yet to hear someone with a nice dog that is winning complain that the judge had any faults but as I said, such is life.

Of the dogs I own the one that has won the most and been the most successful in the show ring under all rounder judges, is, in my opinion, a poor example of the breed but I don't remember thinking the judges were dishonest as I picked up the trophies just that they lacked breed knowledge and if you enter under an all rounder you do not expect the deep breed knowledge that breed specialists will have. All round judges will, in a lot of cases, judge the exhibit as a dog and not as a breed so they may well place a dog that is not a good example of the breed standard, but then we know and expect that when we enter under them

I agree breeders should breed to the standard, most judges are basically honest , but as already mentioned some judges differ to the norm, although I am new to judging I like to think that I place the best dogs on the day, now then those dog may normally not get placed at other shows, but if they are the only ones there, you have to pick the best of a "bad" bunch many judges learn with experience, the more dogs they go over(judge) hopefully the more they learn. the problem is sometimes you may get a "high flyer" that is not ideal that gets placed many times because it has presence in the ring, you then find more novice breeders trying to emulate that dog in their breeding programme, so eventually you get more of dogs that are not to the standard than are, what is a judge to do? when presented with a line up of dogs that in his opinion dont really meet the standard?

Mo