Behavioural Question dog aggression issue

I have a young dog with aggression issues, but only to other aggressive dogs, she'll "have a go back", she's bitten, and she won't back down, I've had to take control.

Anyhow, after a long chat with a behaviourist, I've been told to reduce her stress levels by walking her in secluded areas, and I've noticed something now which I find quite strange. Whereas, she would meet and greet friendly dogs that were coming towards her offlead, she now has to be put ONlead (obviously) for any dog approaching because I just don't know whether she'll kick off if it gives her an attitude, although I have to say, I've since had a couple of dogs come charging over to us (at the start of my secluded walk), and she's been absolutely fine with them. BUT, when I see another dog approaching down the same track I'm on, I put her onlead, take her to one side and get her to sit and wait, which she's more than happy to do, she's never been a "lunger" to get at other dogs, she's very clam and relaxed to let them pass no matter how close, and whether they be friendly or aggressive, they can lunge and bark at her, she doesn't react, she stays sat there. All good.

The strange thing is, loose dogs that have gone to come charging up to us, stop about 6 ft away, stare at us both, and then decide to turn around and walk away! Perfect, BUT, why is this then?? I stopped and chatted with a lady I met just now when out of my bike, she had a collie, so I sat Zena next to me and held the bike, and as we chatted her dog stayed with her but she said she didn't understand why her dog was behaving like that, because normally, he is very nosy and always goes up to people and dogs to say hello, but he has decided he doesn't want to come over to us! I then told her about how I've noticed this happening of late, the fact that dogs turn around and walk away from us, when Zena is not giving off any aggression, she's purely sitting there watching me, and watching the other dog, but nice and calm and quiet.

This is weird, I've never seen this behaviour before from approaching dogs, and it's only been the real youngsters that have had the bottle to just come charging over, but then I KNOW Zena will be as good as gold with anything her age or younger because that's always been the case.
Any ideas what we're giving off then by way of signals? Just interested, although have to say, I quite like this behaviour now from other dogs!

Some dogs just seem to have a sort of "presence" about them that makes other dogs think twice about whatever they were going to do. They don't need to be aggressive, they don't need to leap and shout, they don't need to threaten, they just are who/what they are. Used to see similar things happen with Shadow although the friendly ones would just change their approach instead of walking away. They'd go from charging up to him to grovelling up to him. Never had an issue with the bullies, they avoided him like the plague. He also wouldn't back down if a dog had a go at him but it was extremely rare that happened once he matured. I know it wasn't me giving off the signals because it'd happen whether he was on leash and next to me or off leash and halfway across the field.

I would KILL to have another dog like him when it comes to other dogs. He wasn't messed with but he didn't start anything either. He didn't approach other dogs but was polite if approached by another dog. He wouldn't tolerate being humped and he wouldn't back down if another dog started something but it was all slobber and noise and once it was over he didn't hold a grudge.

Yes, I'm getting that too (the bold bit!), although MORE so now. I wonder if it's a new approach then that my dog has learned, now that I am in control of the situation by merely putting her on that lead and giving her a command, whereas before, she was loose and had to sort it out for herself, but that can't happen now of course. Hmmm, she's also fully mature now at 2 1/2, so she could well be trying this new approach and could be that she finds she likes the results, i.e. the more aggressive dogs walking away and leaving her alone perhaps?

I must admit, as we were going back to the car park today, we met the SAME woman with her collie coming towards us as she too was going home but on another route, and her collie was a matter of only about 2 ft away from us as it walked past, and you could tell it was dying to come and say "hello", by it's body language, it looked ultra friendly, and yet it chose to walk straight past still displaying the very friendly attitude towards us, which again, was also good!

Thanks Sarah!

Any dog that charges up to a mature GSD bitch is either very young or very stoopid.
Yes, I have noticed that while dogs will run at Shamus none take their chances with Daisy. And Daisy has never been dog aggressive. The only fight she`s ever had was with a bitch she knew well and their dislike came to a head one day.
I think Daisy`s body language is so easy and confident that other dogs `get` her immediately, whereas Shamus being a big wuss who postures when frightened is a natural target.
So maybe Zena now has more confidence - and shows it?

Thanks Claire, and this is making sense now! Maybe, because I have taken over the decision making for her, i.e. by putting the lead on and getting her to sit niceley, this in turn (if it WAS fear aggression) has actually made her more confident with the situation and she feels she doesn't have to react.

When I first started with the lead thing, a black terrier was approaching us down a wide path which Zena KNOWS from her puppy days, they've both met onlead a few times and were fine, but this particular day, the very day after Zena had bitten that dog, the terrier started really going off on one, lungeing at her, barking profusely as the couple walked past with it, and yet Zena who was also onlead didn't take a blind bit of notice of it , she was focused on me with her ball as we walked past only a few feet away. I honestly feel it's the lead thing that has given her this confidence, even though the behaviourist I spoke to over the phone has said putting her onlead is the WORST thing I could do - I beg to differ on that coz I don't want to witness another fight!

I know it's all my fault that we've ended up in this boat, because 3 of her attacks in the past, I've had her sitting in front of me, focused on me, and the bladdy dogs have launched themselves at her from behind Stupid, stupid me, BUT, back then, I didn't realise that they would do that because they were coming over offlead, and I also thought she'd have turned around when she heard them coming or saw them out of the corner of her eye. It's all well and good having this total focus thing going on, but it didn't do her any favours in the past! The others of course, have been with her offlead, but even one of those, she had her back to them

I'm honestly thinking, it's because she's mature now, that they're getting the message too.

It could be worse, I could have a lungeing lunatic on my hands I suppose, but instead of that, thank goodness, she's decided to adopt the aloof business (just like Daisy!). Let's hope you're right then Claire, and the aggressive ones will read her well and steer well clear, which I assume is what's happening here at the moment?

That's really interesting Helen. I do the same thing with Lily. She began by not backing down to dogs that started on her but it got to the stage that if another (smaller, female) would show submissive behaviour, Lily would pin them down. No damage done, but a lot of noise and it is totally unacceptable for her to behave that way.

I dog watch now. Any dog, Cocker sized or smaller, approaching us, will mean Lily is called back and put on lead. She is brilliant about this and will totally ignore the dogs providing they behave around her. PLUS I read her body language and whisk her away as if something great is going to happen so as to distract her.

This has worked brilliantly until a Westie came charging over to us on Sunday and Lily did not like his approach at all. I was faced with letting her possibly get into a fight (she was onlead) or pick her up which I did. I hate doing this but the dog was jumping at her so I had to spin round to stop him getting her. The owner was pretty useless despite me asking her repeatedly to call her dog away.

He finally gave up and ran back to her but I know, had Lily been offlead there would have been trouble.

I'm delighted to hear that Zena is responding so well to your methods. If it works for you then do it!!

Yup, this.

On a walk the other day, I just had Bo with me. A woman with a large German Shepherd on lead came around the corner. Bo, who was off lead, stopped and took one look at the dog before giving it the biggest wide birth possible and scampering off. Like Zena, this dog didn't 'do' anything, but obviously gave off some kind of "I mean business" vibe.

Mature German Shepherds are one of the breeds that generally I find command a lot of respect from other dogs. Mine wouldn't dare pull some of the playful stunts that they do on the vast majority (bar the couple of they know) of German Shepherds.

I think it depends on the GSD themselves tbh. Yiannis is also 2 1/2 (dob 31/10/200 and until he was attacked in September 2009 he would play with anyone and anything he came into contact with. After that, he would attack anything in sight - dogs and people alike; although the people he would lunge at were very similar to the neighbour who attacked him!

It took me 4 months of constant training and hard work to get him to a point where I could take him back to training classes where I knew he wouldn't try to bite someone because they seemed similar to the neighbour.

Since taking him back to training last year (January 2010) he has commanded (as opposed to demanded) respect from other dogs. Other GSDs will still approach and puppies & young dogs who know no better but Yiannis is fine with this. Any older dogs clearly decide to offer him respect, which I don't see as a problem.

Where Zane is concerned, all he need do is look down his big nose at them and another dog will stop dead in its tracks. He does this to GSDs too if he decides he's not happy for them to approach.

Zane does this at home too if the other dogs are playing and he wants them to stop. He just gives them "the look" and they stop.

There have been times when I've wished I could have picked Zena up, but as you know..... Yes, my method works, but I was just wondering WHY, especially when that lady told me this morning that her dog always goes up to people and dogs to say hello but didn't want to come near us ! But then she tells me after we got chatting, that her dog is the SAME as Zena If a dog shows her aggression, she won't back off and she gets aggressive Soooooooo glad I didn't let her go near it then!!!

Yes Labradork, I've found that in the past, especially with my old Cassie, she was very much like Daisy is, with that air of supremacy daring any dog to approach her, but then she was the softest dog around, I never knew her to get into any rucks or show any aggression. Hopefully I suppose, if this behaviour carries on with Zena, she might turn into the same when she realises that other dogs DO actually have the respect for her she is aiming for, because prior to this new "look" of hers, she never, ever got any before!

sounds like Yiannis was the same as Zena was when she was growing up, but then too many bad experiences and then look what you've got on your hands Glad you've sorted out his problems. We don't have a problem with any human or kids, she adores kids, and suffers any human wanting to give her a fuss, this is purely other dogs who are making a bee-line for her, I see her body language change instantly, and then change back if it's going to be ok, and if not, then thankfully, they're turning back for the moment! God help me if one of them doesn't though! I can't pick her up, the best I can do is to stuff my bicycle wheel between it and her! She's well trained, she will do what I ask, but when it comes to a full on confrontation, I don't know whether she's just going to sit there and take it anymore, from what I've seen with her OFFlead anyway.

thanks all, very interesting. It sounds like this could be a good thing, so I shall continue with what works for us no matter what other people might think because I don't want their dogs getting in her face!

p.s. to my other post! Zena has another great friend who she walked with most mornings, a little jr, and the lady told me not to be so stupid as to put her onlead coz they get on fine (this was after Zena bit that dog!), so I let her off, and off they went toodlinng along together, sniffing the same spot, just like Zena does with Lily and not an ounce of aggression from either of them! This jr can be snappy with dogs when it's put onlead, although Zena was always allowed to approach her ONlead she never got told off by it. It's all so strange isn't it, if only they could talk it'd be a lot simpler for us!!!