He's quartering in those pics, although he was only young there (about 10 months old) and still practising. I don't see the need to rush, you only risk ruining the dog to prove a point! He did get a few points, but it was his first time on the moor and the trainer wanted to concentrate on keeping him steady, so we didn't concentrate on the whole process as it were.

Like I said earlier it's very difficult taking pics when you're training alone, which I'm hoping to change in the near future, and rather than risk messing it up by taking my eye off the ball, I think it's much wiser to concentrate on Oscar's training than trying to show off in the process.

And again, I've never said show Springers can't work (with the correct moderate feathering) my gripe is with those that choose to ignore the breed standard and breed dogs with incorrect excessive coats. Again, as I said, this amount of coat was and is not necessary and will only serve to hinder the dog. If the coats were meant to look like the second pic I posted then the photos of show Springers from the 1950s, 1960s etc would look this way. However they don't, they look much more like the first pic I posted therefore proving my point that the second pic is of a dog with excessive feathering bred in to more the dog more flashy for the show ring.

Really not sure how many more times I can say it really. That must be the fourth at least!

Most HPR breeds point as young at 8 weeks old, its instinct not rushing.
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YiXI8Lr7u8w/0.jpg

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...t=embedwebsite

Show off? Cant see taking an interest in a dogs training would be showing off? "Somebody" took the pics right? Showing off, or taking an iterest and having a photographic record of the day?

And again, YOUR interpretation of moderate, I dont agree with it. I cant say it any plainer either Rips.!

Don't quite understand what you are getting at---I am sure the dog can point but there is a bit more to it than that.

I know you said that you only expect your dogs to understand two commands so you wouldn't have experience of the nuances of working a dog and the need for self control when free running and quartering.

If you rush you can loose that control and take a long while to get it back.

That has been stressed over and over by the three gundog trainers I have worked with. One clicker trains, one is quite hard on his dogs and one is kind of middle ground. All want total control and won't rush the dogs.

rune

Rips implied that pointing was "rushing it" its the most natural and instinctive part of an HPR breed. It certainly isnt rushing it, if you knew anything about choosing a working puppy (for this type of work) you would know that its one of the things that trainers and breeders look for even in the nest, they dont keep them all til they are approaching two years old, and say the very essence of a breed is rushing it! However I dont expect you to understand that, with your view of breeders and all....

You can knock my dogs all you like my dear, take your best shot, but Im sure you are fully aware that your opinion of my dogs (and me) means absolutely zip to me, always has.

Me thinks because I can control a dog with a few words, some folk dont like that, perhaps you'd like to spend the day with us in the field, that will be a Border Terrier pointing, bushing, working a beating line, retrieving and marking if you like, all with perhaps two words of instruction, you'll enjoy it, really peaceful. Then, if you like we could go ratting, typical Terrier work, no instruction at all, pure instinct!

LOL----you said two words ---now it is a few?

Don't think I have ever 'knocked your dogs', I make a point of not blaming any animal for its owners behaviour.

If you read Rips post she actually said that the trainer wanted to concentrate on keeping the dog steady and not rush it. Which is what 3 different trainers said to me.

In Borderdawn world they were all wrong I suppose (G)!

rune

Thanks for the pics. Oscar has been pointing since he was about 3 months old, but quartering, going on point and flushing is something entirely different.

It would be showing off to me as he's my first HPR and I need a lot more training! Attempting to take pics whilst training my dog is unnecessary and it's only purpose would be to show others. I'd rather concentrate on the dog and get that right first, then I'll risk making a photographic record.

Oh I'm not bothered whether you agree, but the facts speak for themselves. The second pic does not show an ESS with moderate feathering, otherwise it would resemble the historical pictures of the breed. If the breed was meant to have that amount of feathering it would've done form the very beginning. Simple as that. Not an interpretation, fact.

Totally agree with all of that. Oscar can point and has done from 12 weeks old, it's the fine tuning you've got to make sure you don't rush. Pointing and being "on point" are two different things. As the trainer said on the day - I have excellent control of him (at the moment! ), there's no point in trying to rush him through the training. There's so much more to training an HPR than instinct, that is only the start. The trainer on the day absolutely loved him and said he worked brilliantly for his age and I'm more than happy with that. There's nothing quite like hearing it from the mouth of someone who knows what they're on about.

No, you wanted pics of him on point. At that stage he was only a baby and the trainer wanted to concentrate on him being steady. Concentrating on having a dog "on point" at that age would be very foolish and rushing it. In my and the 2 expert HPR trainers I've trained with, opinions. And it's exactly right approach for an HPR of 10 months old. The last thing you want to do is rush the dog when pointing, have the game flush and suddenly realise you have zero control on the flush. The dog should be 100% steady before considering allowing the dog to go on point and flush.

Exactly, glad someone can read.

Amusing to say the least Lynn, but entertaining just the same!

Care to take me up on my offer Lynn, spend a day out in the field with me?

Precisely, you are not "bothered" if I agree, but because I dont agree with you, I must be wrong! Gotcha, just as I thought.

If you pay my petrol and dog minding fees and overnight accommodation I am up for it.

rune

Actually---even if you would I probably wouldn't TBH---I don't do killing things for pleasure and I don't really want to watch.

Sorry.

rune