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View Poll Results: Poll - Do you agree you should be alpha male over your dog?
Yes 70 39.33%
No 71 39.89%
Other, please specify 37 20.79%
Voters: 178. You may not vote on this poll - please see pinned thread in this section for details.



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Gnasher
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20-04-2009, 01:40 PM
Originally Posted by labradork View Post
Based on what? while dogs maintain many instincts, through selective breeding they have lost just as many. Many, many breeds wouldn't last 5 minutes if left to fend for themselves. Can you see an English Bulldog or a Chihuahua tackling a deer/other large prey? or most breeds at all for that matter (I have watched my Lab chase a deer that sprung out on us once, and it was pretty funny watching him lollop for 50 yards before giving up!).
Absolutely they would ! Have you not heard of the little Shiba Inu who lived for yonks in Hyde Park in London (I think it was Hyde Park)? And there are frequent stories of dogs fending for themselves. Of course they can. It is daft to say otherwise. Dogs don't need to tackle a deer to survive, they will live quite happily on small prey such as mice, shrews, worms, even berries and other fruits, roots, grasses. The main diet of the timber wolf is snowshoe hare, and they are not very big.

A little itsy bitsy Chi is more than capable of pouncing on and crunching up a nice tasty snail, field mouse, shrew etc. Don't be fooled by a dog's size !
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Gnasher
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20-04-2009, 01:42 PM
Originally Posted by labradork View Post
Some traits. Sorry, but it is old school to apply behaviorual studies of WILD ANIMALS and apply them to domestic animals. Of course SOME traits will be shared, but animals that have been domesticated for thousands of years will not share all the behavioural traits of a wild animal. Evolution and selective breeding are marvelous things.
I'm not sure how scientific proof such as DNA and RNA studies can be "old school" !

Facts are facts and always will be, you cannot change them !
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labradork
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20-04-2009, 01:57 PM
I'm not sure how scientific proof such as DNA and RNA studies can be "old school" !
Surely you can see behaviourally and physically, dogs have moved on from wolves? I have to say, I do not understand why some people find this concept so hard to grasp. Yes, wolves are domestic dogs ancestors, but dogs are a species of their own. They are not wolves and therefore should not be treated as such. Modern behavioural science has moved on a long, long way since those studies of captive wolves were first published.
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mse2ponder
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20-04-2009, 02:03 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Absolutely they would ! Have you not heard of the little Shiba Inu who lived for yonks in Hyde Park in London (I think it was Hyde Park)? And there are frequent stories of dogs fending for themselves. Of course they can. It is daft to say otherwise. Dogs don't need to tackle a deer to survive, they will live quite happily on small prey such as mice, shrews, worms, even berries and other fruits, roots, grasses. The main diet of the timber wolf is snowshoe hare, and they are not very big.

A little itsy bitsy Chi is more than capable of pouncing on and crunching up a nice tasty snail, field mouse, shrew etc. Don't be fooled by a dog's size !
I've heard of several dogs dying from cold after being abandoned too (whippety, greyhoundy types). Some of the bulldogs I've seen were hardly capable of eating kibble from a bowl, let alone being able to scavenge for sustenance on the street/in the open countryside. I don't think you can say either way - some dogs would be fine, but others wouldn't.

The wolf has evolved to survive how it does, and we've bred dogs away from this highly adapted creature. Many dogs would manage to survive, but they wouldn't necessarily survive in the wild as the wolf does. Dogs seem to be really adaptable, but the physical characteristics of some of today's dogs would not allow them to live as a wild wolf would, obviously.
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SamRottLabb
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20-04-2009, 02:39 PM
Originally Posted by labradork View Post
Based on what? while dogs maintain many instincts, through selective breeding they have lost just as many. Many, many breeds wouldn't last 5 minutes if left to fend for themselves. Can you see an English Bulldog or a Chihuahua tackling a deer/other large prey? or most breeds at all for that matter (I have watched my Lab chase a deer that sprung out on us once, and it was pretty funny watching him lollop for 50 yards before giving up!).
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Absolutely they would ! Have you not heard of the little Shiba Inu who lived for yonks in Hyde Park in London (I think it was Hyde Park)? And there are frequent stories of dogs fending for themselves. Of course they can. It is daft to say otherwise. Dogs don't need to tackle a deer to survive, they will live quite happily on small prey such as mice, shrews, worms, even berries and other fruits, roots, grasses. The main diet of the timber wolf is snowshoe hare, and they are not very big.

A little itsy bitsy Chi is more than capable of pouncing on and crunching up a nice tasty snail, field mouse, shrew etc. Don't be fooled by a dog's size !
Exactly! Gnasher's answered that perfectly.

Well I would of put money on that your lab wouldn't see that chase through as firstly the prey is too big and secondly that your dog has no need to as s/he knows they have no need to. That's all it is - a chase for fun. My Lab chase's bird's, rabbits given a chance but not as she wants to eat them but just for chase. I think that's obvious.

Originally Posted by mse2ponder View Post
I've heard of several dogs dying from cold after being abandoned too (whippety, greyhoundy types). Some of the bulldogs I've seen were hardly capable of eating kibble from a bowl, let alone being able to scavenge for sustenance on the street/in the open countryside. I don't think you can say either way - some dogs would be fine, but others wouldn't.

The wolf has evolved to survive how it does, and we've bred dogs away from this highly adapted creature. Many dogs would manage to survive, but they wouldn't necessarily survive in the wild as the wolf does. Dogs seem to be really adaptable, but the physical characteristics of some of today's dogs would not allow them to live as a wild wolf would, obviously.
Some dogs wouldn't survive due to health problems (and it's us humans that have bred half of them into them) and some dogs maybe due to weather and alot of other reason's but there are the same situation's with wolfs/wild dogs and unfortunatly this is nature. But the majority of fit healthy dogs would be able to. What i'm trying to say is that you cannot dismiss the fact that they share simular traits.
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Gnasher
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20-04-2009, 02:45 PM
Originally Posted by labradork View Post
Surely you can see behaviourally and physically, dogs have moved on from wolves? I have to say, I do not understand why some people find this concept so hard to grasp. Yes, wolves are domestic dogs ancestors, but dogs are a species of their own. They are not wolves and therefore should not be treated as such. Modern behavioural science has moved on a long, long way since those studies of captive wolves were first published.
And I don't understand why some people find the evidence of science so hard to grasp !! How can dogs somehow, miraculously, become a species of their own !! They are still wolves physiologically speaking, sharing 99.8% DNA. This makes them the same species. The Smithsonian Institute in the last decade of the last millenium reclassified dogs as Canis Lupus Familiaris - the Familiaris bit to distinguish them from their wild ancestors.

This is what the Anglian Wolf Society have to say :

"Until recently, it was widely assumed that dogs evolved as a result of numerous crosses with various canid species, including cape hunting dogs, jackals and even hyenas. These theories were disproved by a global genetic study of dogs and wolves conducted in the 1990's by the Smithsonian Institute. The study showed that dogs are directly descended from wolves and the domestic dog was reclassified from 'Canis Familiaris' (Friendly canine) to 'Canis Lupus Familiaris' (Friendly wolf). The common ancestor seems to have occurred somewhere between 25,000 and 100,000 years ago".

Now, I don't know about you, but I am not in a position to argue with the Smithsonian Institute !

This is about the simplest stuff that I could find on the subject - all the rest was way, way above my simple head !!
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labradork
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20-04-2009, 02:57 PM
They are still wolves physiologically speaking, sharing 99.8% DNA
So should I start calling myself a chimpanzee as physiologically speaking we share 98% of our DNA?
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Gnasher
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20-04-2009, 03:03 PM
Originally Posted by mse2ponder View Post
I've heard of several dogs dying from cold after being abandoned too (whippety, greyhoundy types). Some of the bulldogs I've seen were hardly capable of eating kibble from a bowl, let alone being able to scavenge for sustenance on the street/in the open countryside. I don't think you can say either way - some dogs would be fine, but others wouldn't.

The wolf has evolved to survive how it does, and we've bred dogs away from this highly adapted creature. Many dogs would manage to survive, but they wouldn't necessarily survive in the wild as the wolf does. Dogs seem to be really adaptable, but the physical characteristics of some of today's dogs would not allow them to live as a wild wolf would, obviously.
I agree partly mse. Provided the more fragile dogs - such as Chi's, greyhounds etc. - could find adequate shelter, I do think they could survive. They would have to have dry cover though, being so thin skinned. But a heavy coated dog could absolutely survive, and not only survive but thrive ! The nothern breeds, the GSDs, standard poodles, labradors, retreivers, the list is endless, would all manage very well killing rabbits, small rodents and ... God forbid ... even livestock. My massive Tai could definitely bring down and kill a sheep or a deer. Hal even caught a leveret once, very illegal but it happened so quickly my husband couldn't stop him. He said he had no idea Hal could run so fast.

But whether the more fragile breeds could live and survive as well as a wolf, well, there I will agree with you, they most certainly could not.

It's amazing what hunger can do for any species. Someone mentioned their labby who didn't know what to do when chasing a deer. He soon would after he hadn't eaten for a few days !
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Gnasher
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20-04-2009, 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by labradork View Post
So should I start calling myself a chimpanzee as physiologically speaking we share 98% of our DNA?

Labradork - that 2% is MASSIVE ! There is only a fraction of a % difference between dog and wolf.
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SamRottLabb
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20-04-2009, 03:06 PM
Originally Posted by labradork View Post
So should I start calling myself a chimpanzee as physiologically speaking we share 98% of our DNA?

Maybe with a reply like that............

It is not being said that dogs are wolves but that they share the same traits as they have evolved from wolves, therefore again no you are not a chimpanzee but yes we humans will share the same traits with the chimpanzee.
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