Thanks for your views Ramble, I really do find this subject interesting.

I would never use an ecollar unless I thought it could save my dog's life and then I would want to either be trained by someone who was competent in using it before using it myself. It is not something I would use lightly by any means, and, as I have already said, I have never used one yet. I would rather use all other kinder means available first.

Anyway, I don't want this thread to turn into an ecollar debate so will steer away from this particular vein now

So, in your experience, dogs never misbehave or play you up? It is just all a lack of understanding?

I dont think that even counts, as I've had Roxy since a puppy, but she 'grew out' of positive training and did whatever the hell she liked anyway. Hence we now have to reinforce our corrections, otherwise she will do it anyway.

And believe me when I say no amount of fresh chicken/liver/me jumping about witha clicker will tempt her away from that tastey bit of cat poo

Also as has been mentioned GSD, our breeds are very simular so I would think thats why we have so many simularities in our training and finding out what works.

I think the e-collar debate has been 'done to death', but let me give an example of how physical aversives aren't a cure all.

My dog used to love to sit on the marble hearth in front of the gas fire. We had the fire serviced and Sam took up his position as usual. He quite suddenly yelped and jumped away. As he has HD and arthritis, I assumed the yelp and jump related to this. A couple of days later, he again went to the fire and again the same happened. We investigated and found that the wire for the electronic ignition was trapped creating a 'live' spot on the front of the fire.

For about three weeks, Sam didn't go near the fire. However, after this time, he went back to the fire, tentatively took up his favourite position and did so every day until the fire and hearth finally bit the dust.

So, did the aversive provide an inadvertant quick fix? Yep. Did the fix last? Nope!!

Using physical aversives look attractive at the outset, but, hand on heart, if used for, say, chasing sheep, would you really trust that the dog would never chase them again once the 'quick fix' had been applied? I wouldn't and neither would I be prepared to keep a collar on my dog and the button in my hand.

. Of course they do!! Dogs aren't robots, if they were they wouldn't be any fun at all.

However, don't assume that when your dog misbehaves or plays you up, that it is always because s/he is deliberately being defiant. Like us, there's always a reason behind it.

Dogs that don't understand what is required of them demonstrate the behaviour

Dogs that are actively uncomfortable with what they are being asked to do demonstrate the behaviour

Dogs that are bored misbehave or play up

Let me ask a question, what would you do with a child who misbehaved or played up? I tend to redirect their behaviour onto something more constructive just the same as I do with my dogs

I would also direct their behaviour to more constructive things. But I would first point out the negative behaviour in the hope that they would learn.

Example... Dog is chewing my shoe. I tell him "NO" and remove the shoe, then replace the shoe with a bone or toy. IMO this tells him the shoe is out of bounds but it's ok to play with the toy. I have done that and now he rarely bothers with the shoe. On the odd occation that he does, I just give him a gentle "no" to remind him.

Which supposes that your dog will rationalise and reason? A child would, of course, because they can understand our explanations of what we feel about their behaviour.

A dog, on the other hand, is just as likely to see it differently:

Chew shoe = owner talks to me
Owner says 'no' = getting a bone or a toy
Best way to get a bone or a toy = chew shoe

Well it works for me

Who's to say they can't? I think dogs are a lot smarter than they are sometimes given credit for.

Indeed, and I must say I think it's a very short time. Especially if handlers are not always experienced with dogs and training.

RE Dogwise, the dog was an adult rescue, from Wood Green I believe...nice looking boy. I'm pretty certain he was trained in the 12 weeks and did well in his test