I don't think it's fair that other people's dogs who have come to train should have to encounter my rude dog At least at class everyone is there for the same reason, no blame, full supportive. Plus they have teaching dogs who control interactions and keep everyone in line.

If I let Cain play with any old random dogs after a training class, he'd probably just flattern them which wouldn't be good for anyone

But even if he recalls away from every single dog we see, fact is random dogs mug us on walks every single day and it's very stressful for all involved. If we lived somewhere more rural, then recall and avoidance would work. I need Cain to learn to be better with other dogs and we meet them every single walk in large numbers. Everyone would be happier if he could learn to interact.

The classes are usually very controlled. There are teaching dogs who keep other dogs in check. Dogs are allowed a certain amount of leway to sort out problems for themselves but will either be interupted by teaching dogs or humans if it's getting out of hand. Cain's behaviour (while he still has a long way to go) has improved dramatically since participating in these classes and I am very happy with how they are run. I will not be leaving.

I post to ask for advice on impulse control, not to need to defend my choice of training class.

He has been going to these classes for about 8 months now, and it's only the last two weeks that we've had an issue with the horse...I'm certainly not going to quit on those grounds.

I didn't mean to cause offence. Your initial post was about your class, so that is what I was mainly commentating on.

There are some things you just CAN'T change about your dog. It may be that Cain will never be happy with other dogs getting too close. (I have a dog with issues, after 2 years of trying to "cure him" I am trying to live with it).

Fair enough. I don't think my first post was that clear. I was just using the class as example as it was the most recent event. Fact is, if I let him off lead on a walk, likely he would be pounding off to stick his nose in whatever interested him. Now I don't let him off lead because of his behaviour with other dogs, but should he ever get to the stage when he's behaved enough to go off lead around dogs, I don't want to then have to keep him on lead because his recall/off lead control isn't good enough. So I'd like if possible to address it now, the problem being that it's hard to train without being able to setup the scenarios, and the one place he is off lead with distractions, I can't use treats. Bit of a catch 22.

I'm not trying to change him. I'm just trying to help him cope with life. Much of it is management, but he can be brilliant with some dogs and he really is improving since attending the classes. His on lead behaviour is a million times better, he doesn't stare and lunge and kick off any more. Maybe he'll never be "normal" but I really do believe he can still improve.

While I don't think he'll ever be able to go off lead all the time. Sometimes there is a wide empty space where I wish I could let him off and know he won't dash off if something appears on the horizon. I need him to stay close to me and come back when called so I can put him on lead if needs be.

I realise this needs to be trained outside of socialisation class, but as I said he KNOWS when he's on lead and behaves, so I'm unsure how I can ever train a reliable recall

I'm going to train him to a whistle recall at the workshop next week. But the problem isn't strictly him coming back, it's teaching him to stay close and not approach in the first place...

Well TBH I fail to see how you can get your dog to recall away from the horse unless you can offer something more interesting for him than the horse?

As you are not permitted to carry either toys or food, what can you provide which is more reinforcing?

Sounds like you would benefit on going to a specialist recall workshop such as those offered below.

If you cannot recall your dog away from a temptation in this "controlled" environment then you are correct, the chances of you doing so in one that is uncontrolled are somewhere between slim and zero are they not?

Also, if you cannot maintain connection/engagement when he is next to you then you cannot possibly maintain it at a distance.

If there is no engagement, then surely you are fighting a losing battle?

As for the horse "deliberately winding the dogs up" well I guess that accusation could be made against any and all other dogs/humans/wildlife that your dog might encounter?

This class either meets your needs or it does not......

I am not sure that socialisation is the real issue here, it is more about your relationship..........

Ultimate Recall: 4 Day Course with John Rogerson

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• Relationship/influence building in recall training
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• Freeze/stop on recall/running wait
• Distance/direction control
• Calling dogs off of distractions
• Out of sight recall (owner hidden)
• Obedience/competition recall (dog is called from a stationary position)
• Free running recall (dog is called while in motion)
• Type "A" recall (dog re-joins his owner in motion)

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At Andover, England
7th-10th August , 2012; 4 day duration 9.30 am-4.00 pm
To register contact Pauline Wise at pauline@wiseowl.wanadoo.co.uk

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Chase Recall Masterclass (with Practical Demos) with Stella Bagshaw

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Environment – where you walk your dog and why it matters
Practical demos included. Everyone should do this course! Donʼt miss it!
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To be fair...the horse does deliberately seek out the dogs! But as I said, even if I took the horse away, it doesn't solve the problem. Cain would still chase other things, so it's a problem to be addressed (much as I hate that damn horse )

It's hard to know what reward, even if I could give it, would trump a horse His ultimate reward is his squeaky tennis ball but if he sees a squirrel etc, he zones out and ignores it. Now if I could reward him with a live squirrel....we'd be sorted!

The class meets my needs for socialisation. Unfortunately it's the only opportunity where he is off lead around distractions, and not a suitable place to train recall. However recall training isn't why I take him there.

I did contact about the John Rodgson course to ask about taking a "difficult" dog, and they didn't reply to me WOuld you say these course are worth going to if you can't set up the scenarios after the course? Cain won't learn perfect recall in a few days, and without repetition, I fear we'd be no further forward. I'd be more than happy to attend one, I really wanted to go to the John Rogerson one, but I wanted to go with my dog,

The class sounds a little difficult, and in some respects I think I wouldnt bother recaling him if you cannot reward him

The 'premack' principle to reward him might be good here - recal him and reward him by sending him off to play with the dogs/chase the horses

If you can be in the place on your own without the other dogs there you can work with treats/toys with the mad horse
I did something similar to this with Mia because initally when she was offlead I did not exist at all

I just took her to a safe place and let her zoom about
Then any time her zoom took her close to me I chucked a bit of chicken at her then told her to go away and play
after a bit of time her zooms more often came close to me so I then asked for a quick sit or 1s of heelwork before sending her off to play
always sending her off before she wanted to run off herself
after a very short while I had a dog glued to my side bugging me to do stuff with her

I would prob do something similar with the horse - seeing as it isnt going to be stressed with a dog!!

Yes it's worth having another read and trying. It is awkward to start with but they really get into it.

I can see why you wouldn't want food or toys lying around in a class with difficult dogs but if you cannot reward other than with praise then you can't really use it to train. If the purpose of the class is just to learn social skills from the other dogs then if Cain barrels in when there is a commotion he will learn from the other dogs...or not....
Problem being the other dogs are 'problem dogs.'

BTW Polo barrels in when on his social walk. He feels the urge to stick his oar in where its not wanted. The difference being, if he ignores me, the response from the other dogs is appropriate because they are normal balanced dogs. Ideal for learning from.

Training to walk 'with me' off-lead around distractions with no rewards allowed is a bit of a non-starter. Of course he will lose interest!

I just wanted to add as well
Not sure that a class of problem dogs is the best place to learn social skills? Because all the dogs are their because they dont have good social skills
Of course I havent been there so Im not saying the class is no good, just a concern

I am struggling to understand why ANY class would not be a suitable place/time to train recalls?

Surely this is precisely WHERE you need a recall if the dog is mesmerised by other dogs and horses?

I cannot get my head around the concept of "socialisation class v recall class" I am afraid.

I can envisage NO scenario where recall training is not paramount.

Anyway that is your choice.

As for going to John Rogerson class, why not go WITHOUT your dog? You can then relax and learn and absorb more by watching others, learning new skills and techniques to apply when you go back to your dog?

That way you do not have to spend time worrying about how your dog will behave?